LeoViridis

There is no reason he should force himself to work with systems that he doesn't find suitable, I believe.

It isn't bollocks. It's been pretty much proven by science. It has been observed that people can consciously enter a state of deep delta brainwave, the state which is predominately present at the onset and during unconscious sleep. Hence consciously reaching that state basically makes it a state between waking and sleeping - you are not awake but neither asleep. Even if you are not drunk or sleepy you can get there, given that you are somewhat proficient in meditation.

Milarepa was said to have achieved Samyak-Sambodhi (perfect enlightenment) in a single lifetime. This implies that he had no boons from previous lives. I think it's important to work hard for NOW, not so much for the future in this matter.

Again you seem to be implying people should trust your word better that the master of the system they are interested in. Above all you seem certain that only your opinion on how to get to immortality is correct. You seem very certain in your knowledge. If Chang says there is storing Yin Qi, and you say there isn't, then his opinion automatically overrules yours, given that he is (was) the HEADMASTER of the school we are talking about. Simple logic, isn't it?

No offense, but using various sources or comparing yourself to John Chang (the Magus/Magickian thing) doesn't make you any more credible. Are you perhaps implying that you know Mo Pai training better than John Chang?

You seem to be very confident in yourself... That's fine I guess. May I ask something though? Why should anyone regard your opinion higher than the opinion of the master of the lineage they are interested in?

Allow me ask then - what it is you are claiming to be capable of?

That is like Ad Hominem. Kosta's character isn't relevant to what he had to teach or what was taught to him.

I don't think John Chang will be accepting anyone anytime soon, but that doesn't mean that one simply needs to give up. Sure, one can practice Level 1 and let karma and fate guide him after that... In other words, crossing the first bridge before worrying about the next one. Regarding the signs; I'm not sure I see the reason Jim would make them up. As far as I'm aware, Jim said there were two signs of progression, but didn't tell his students what they were, in order for them to experience it for themselves. That is how I've heard.

Of course, it's their decision if they do not want to teach anyone outside their group. Nobody can blame them for it, it's their school after all. However, people are going to have interest regardless. They don't have to reply to anything, or speak to anyone, nobody is forcing them. If they wish to have their peace, let them. Are we somehow obstructing their peace by talking about Nei Gong, Mo Pai, and what we know? While they may not wish to share their techniques, and they don't have to do so, meditation is every human being's birthright. So I don't think anyone with an interest in Mo Pai is doing anything wrong. Regarding Jim's cancer; Ken already answered that one. I'm sure the Spirits of the Elders are real. But I don't think they will get angry at us or anyone else for meditating. Why would they?

I don't think I was dramatizing anyone's words too much. I reread what GrandmasterP wrote, just in case, and he wrote that one has to be "born into it". I merely stated the fact that this seems very strange, given that neither Jim nor Kosta nor John Chang (or any of his students apparently) were "born into it". Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is a lineage, not a blood related family. Regarding practice; there is no certainty of progression... But I believe it's better to try than to just give up. About getting hurt or getting cancer... I hope this isn't one of those "Jim got cancer because he practiced wrong" or something...

John Chang wasn't "born into the Mo Pai clan", and neither was Jim, Kosta, their students or even Liao for that matter. What you say makes no sense whatsoever. Mo Pai is a school of Nei Gong with a set of techniques for progression through the system. If a westerner practices those techniques it doesn't make them any less real. That's the same as saying that a westerner can't practice Qi Gong, because they have to be born into it, or can't practice Buddhism, Taoism or Gong Fu, because they have to be born into it.

This is again subjective. There is no universal rule or axiom that says "number 2 = duality/Adam and Eve, and number 7 = spiritual perfection". None whatsoever. Different people and different cultures ascribe different meanings to different numbers. There is no unifying principle to this. The Garden of Eden was also the time when God wasn't described as all-merciful and omniscient and so omnipotent yet. At those times people believed that the sky was a dome, covering the Earth to keep the water that surrounded it out.

I think I brought up sufficient facts to disagree with you. I tried to keep my post as short as I could. I don't think I even addressed all the issues with your logic. Even if you'd say you're past level 4, I'd believe it about as much as your claims of talking and befriending the Indonesian students and them sharing thier techniques with you. And there is no "westernized Mo Pai". There are people in the west who are interested in Mo Pai, but that doesn't make it any more "westernized Mo Pai" as there is "westernized Qi Gong", "westernized Taoism", or "westernized Buddhism".

Honestly,... Kosta is probably just fed up with everything. I don't blame him either.

Sure, life mixes and matches, everything around mixes and matches, it's part of nature. But the same doesn't go about logic. But you can't simply throw different cultures, systems, ideals, into a big pot, mix it together, and magically pull out a grander sense. That's my view. I can't agree that this number whole 72 is merely symbolic in every way, because numerology says so. Indeed this topic struck a chord with me... but sadly not in a good way. There are thing you can and cannot equate.

Ok, why not, I'll express my view a bit. First of all, I think it's foolish to assume that the 72 levels are equal to numerology... Sure, maybe the progression in the system (or the levels) doesn't have such a rigorous distinction. But that doesn't justify equating it with numerology, Venus, Lucifer and the Goetia, and then claiming it's merely symbolic and that it doesn't exist, without any first hand info (that you can prove to have). Now, I'm not going to go and comment on every single statement, since there was a whole wall of text of them. I can say that maybe the number 72 has some significance. It was mentioned in other cultures. But describing the progression system of any school as "symbolic" or "non-existent" merely on such evidence is ridiculous. Then ascribing some meaning of "Spiritual Perfection" to number 7 and "Duality or Adam and Eve" to number 2 is also far-fetched. That is again subjective, not a universal rule. Second, making it sound like "high-end, advanced" Nei Gong moves over to NeiDan is also incorrect in my point of view. There is no reason to assume that one leads to the other or vice-versa. Furthermore, equating JinDan, the Holy Grail and the Philosopher's Stone just shows lack of understanding from my point of view. There is no substantial evidence to show that these three have anything in common... at all. And I find it funny how Mo Pai somehow ended up being equated with magick and sorcery. There is no real connection. Mo Pai is Nei Gong. Magick and sorcery is not Nei Gong. That much can be understood, right? Third, claiming that John Chang was born special goes against what John Chang himself said... That there is nothing special about him aside from his training and meditation. Putting him in the role of a sorcerer/necromancer is quite shocking, and frankly kind of makes you think this whole thing is a Harry Potter novel. John Chang is a master of Nei Gong and Kung Fu... not really a sorcerer. And though he can communicate with spirits, that is not his prime objective, and he doesn't do it for the purpose of somehow using the spirits or using them for divination. Therefore he is not a necromancer. Fourth, is my personal opinion. I don't trust SOTG when he says that he talked with the people who train Mo Pai on the darknet. I think that the idea is absurd. But that's my opinion. Why would the Indonesian students even need the darknet to converse about their activities and training? And then, by some incredible miracle, he stumbled unto their conversation and was accepted, and they even shared their information with him... that doesn't seem like a believable story to me, I'm sorry. I could also claim that years ago, I met George Bush on the darknet, and he was arguing with the Al-Qaeda up there, and I got friendly with him, and he admitted that he was a lizard from outer space... Just not a believable story. I won't flame on SOTG for it though. As for GrandmasterP's statement. I can't say who you talked with or who you didn't talk with... but I find it rather silly that Jim, Kosta and their students progressed through the system, while being told "fake" information, if that is what you claim. I'll state again that I mean no offense to anyone with anything I said, just to make it clear.

No. I stated that I was rooted in my decision not to get into these discussions. Was. I usually prefer to keep my opinions to myself regarding these matters. I merely stated my view on this point. I don't think you can just mix and match according to numerology, numbers, and the rest of what was posted, and then try to make some grander sense of things. But that is my view.

I'm sorry man, I mean no offense to anyone, and I was firmly rooted in my decision not to get into discussions like this... But I don't see how you can just throw everything in a big pot, mix it together and pretend it makes sense. Then again, belief is up to the individual.

I was wondering what everyone here thought about the Hare Krishna Movement... I don't mean any offense, if anyone here is part of the movement, but some people close to me joined them a while ago, and I've noticed some unpleasant changes in them. I've read a few things and heard a few things, and personally see the organization itself as a bit hypocritical... They advertise "no materialism", but earn millions each month. I've heard they even bought a small castle in Belgium. They teach their members that communicating with anyone else but devotees is meaningless, because everyone and everything else is "impure"... They practically worship Srila Prabhupada as an enlightened holy man, but checking out his interviews reveal him to be little more than an absurd racist, sexist and discriminator... They are taught that their way is the only way, and the only true spirituality, everything else is bogus... But I don't think that simply chanting 16 words for several hours a day will spare you from reincarnation and karma. They also have not one person who succeeded, to show as an example... So, any thoughts about the movement? I was merely wondering how others see it...

Never saw a parrot singing Hare Krishna before, haha.

Fair enough, however, I personally wouldn't entrust all my time to chanting, in hopes of gaining liberation. I would pursue other methods.

I am aware of that, however, I still think that simply chanting will not achieve the end goal of liberation from karma and reincarnation. Even if you chant for 12 hours a day, you may still end up making certain decisions, which will affect your karma, and nothing will change. Well, honestly speaking, it's hard for me not to think of the Hare Krishna Movement as not being a cult. Seems like most of what they practice/teach is standard for cults... that in itself raises certain concerns. He basically told Arjuna, that he should perform his duties. Krishna is evidently most devoted to those, who are devoted to their duties... I've read a few book Prabhupada wrote, but somehow ended up disliking them. Perhaps because he dissed any other spiritual movement and cultivation, or because his work is ridden with his opinion and the reader has no chance to create their own opinion. I've read some of the Bhagavad-Gita, without Prabhupad's commentaries, and I must say, I enjoyed it more that way. Still not my thing though. Prabhupad's end goal for ISKCON was for it to dominate the world in political, economical, cultural and religious areas, from what I've read. They would have a police and court force, enforcing the 4 regulative principles, and would guide the world according to "God's law". I wouldn't enjoy a world like that though.

Indeed, people there tend to be friendly. A lot of them seem to be a bit too radical though. Well, I don't know how it was in the beginning, just how it is now. I still find it detestable that he basically taught sexism, racism and discrimination, and tried to pass it off as some "pure knowledge" or "pure science", it's just silly. I can't believe people actually bought that in the 20th century. But, I guess, to each their own... I know what all the chanting is supposed to achieve, but I've never heard of any definite results... The man was -and still is- worshiped as some holy man, yet he was just a man, and died like a man. With world views like that, and what he was preaching, I highly doubt he ended reincarnation and escaped karma... Perhaps I'm a bit rigid when it comes to this, but I highly doubt it can be ended with just chanting.

Abuse of any kind is abominable, I agree. The problem with religion is that it can bring significant power, and power usually corrupts. Religion is as fallible as the men who run it. I know of these people, although I am not very fond of Srila Prabhupada... Yes, but they refuse to see it. I pity those people... It's like they're chasing after clouds and living in an illusion they are trying so hard to overcome... Sadly, it's almost impossible to talk to most of them, as they refuse to listen. But, I guess it's their path and their decision.