LaoZiDao

A Yin spirit releases after death. Death occurs because of depletion of Yang (specifically Yuanqi, Yuanjing). So there cannot be any fantasies of Yangshen / becoming Xian and so on after death. Agree, Yin spirit remaining after death is definitely popular in Buddhism. But even then, many people didn't even achieve achieve such things like "astral travel" etc, but they think they have. Travelling in their fantasies.

I saw these messages last night and was going to reply. Why do you clear them? You don't stand by your words?

Thank for interesting topic. About this "heavenly realm": "In Buddhist tradition, the Deva realm is populated by godlike beings who enjoy great power, wealth and long life. They live in splendor and happiness. Yet even the Devas grow old and die. Further, their privilege and exalted status blind them to the suffering of others, so in spite of their long lives they have neither wisdom nor compassion. The privileged Devas will be reborn in another of the Six Realms." " Deva. Deva-gati in Sanskrit. Tendō 天道 in Japanese. The realm of heavenly beings filled with pleasure; the deva hold godlike powers; some reign over celestial kingdoms; most live in delightful happiness and splendor; they live for countless ages, but even the Deva belong to the world of suffering (samsara) -- for their powers blind them to the world of suffering and fill them with pride -- and thus even the Deva grow old and die; some say that because their pleasure is greatest, so too is their misery" I agree about the gui. About heaven realm in Samsara, it seems to be nothing in common with what Daoists achieve with Yangshen, Yangshen is outside of Samsara, beyond Taiji.

Firstly I think you have misconceptions about yangshen saving Gui. Secondly I think you missed the main point Zhongliquan made. you continue to ramble on fueled with emotion. Calm down and it can be discussed in civilised way. We are all here to learn and grow, right?

Your attitude is foul, Wells. You seem to have no interest in Daoist discussions? or any respect for anything about Daoism. Zhongliqian IS an authority inin Chinese Daoist circles. As is Ludonbin. Anyway your have provided nothing for your arguments except a lot of emotions.. can you support your arguments with anything we can all discuss?

钟曰：“法有三成者，小成、中成、大成之不同也。 Zhong said: Methods have 3 levels of achievement, small achievement, middle achievement, great achievement, each are distinct. 仙有五等者，鬼仙、人仙、地仙、神仙、天仙之不等，皆是仙也。 Xians have 5 classses, Gui Xian, Ren Xian, Di Xian, Shen Xian, Tian Xian, each differ, but each one is Xian (immortal). 鬼仙不离于鬼，人仙不离于人，地仙不离于地，神仙不离于神，天仙不离于天。 Gui Xian not leave from [realm of] ghosts, Ren Xian not able to leave from the humans [realm], Di Xian not leave able to leave from the earth [realm], Shen Xian not able to leave from spirit [realm], Tian Xian not able to leave from heaven [realm]. 吕曰：“所谓鬼仙者，何也?" Lu said: What is known as Gui Xian (Ghost/devil immortal)? 钟曰：“鬼仙者，五仙之下一也。 Zhong said: Gui Xian, out of the 5 Xian's they are the first and lowest level of Xian. ...Skipped small part where Zhongliquan continues to explain some features about Guixian (you can check original text your self)... and finishes with: 虽不轮回，又难返蓬瀛。终无所归，止于投胎就舍而已。 Gui Xian, while not repeatedly going through Samsara, they have not place to return, only merely stop the reincarnation and nothing more." 吕曰：“是此鬼仙，行何术、用何功而致如此？” Lu said: Right that is Gui Xian, so how to reach this? 钟曰：“修持之人，始也不悟大道，而欲于速成。形如搞木，心若死灰，神识内守，一志不散。定中以出阴神，乃清灵之鬼，非纯阳之仙。以其一志阴灵不散，故曰鬼仙。虽曰仙，其实鬼也。古今崇释之徒，用功到此，乃曰得道，诚可笑也。” Zhong said: By beginning cultivation and not realizing the Great Dao, as well as desire to attain the goal quickly. Cultivation can be compared to a still sitting tree, the heart as if cold and dead ashes, Shen knowledge internally conserve, not to scatter the mind aspirations and concentration. By calmness and stabilizing therefore the Yin Shen can release, it is the clear spirit of a Ghost, pure Yin, without Yang, it is Immortal. Because using the mind aspirations and concentration the Yin spirit wont scatter, for these reasons we call it Gui Xian. Although its called Xian, it's actually a Gui [ghost \ devil \ spirit of dead]. From ancient times til now Buddhist disciples, hardworking diligent practice therefore they call it attained the Dao, truly ridiculous and laughable. ...Zhongliquan also continues to explain about each other level, Renxian, Dixian, Shenxian, Tianxian etc which you can check yourself... P.S. Any one is welcome to suggest corrections on the translation, it's probably not perfect - I am no professional.

I had a quick look, maybe you can provide something you have found about it? I did not see much that made me think it is anything like Minggong in Daoism. I saw a lot of mention about working with post-heaven energy, and "visualization" etc.

Well, I've met plenty, I have family friends who are also Buddhists (Chinese who live in China). I also happen to live very close to one of the biggest Buddhists temple in southern hemisphere as well. Oh also have an acquaintance of a family member who is living monastery life in this temple. So I've met and know enough. Don't really see what point you're trying to make by asking other than some attempt at a small personal jab. Sorry it didn't work out.

Maybe read more carefully, I said most Buddhists, Huineng for example, great. Bodhidharma, I didn't criticise. Also, about your comment: if there is "anything but Xing gong" that is also sad, because both Xing and Ming gong are needed.

To be honest, you are follower of your own certain ideas and conceptions without any proof or anything to back up what you say (not that I've seen so far). Mixing this and that, telling you can create Ming methods simply overnight, probably by accident. You've obviously read a lot of books (probably not in Chinese or Sanskrit?) about a lot of different traditions.. which is good for you, but maybe too many books... at a point all such books become a clutter in the mind and cause many blocks.

Hmm it's not doubtful at all. Many Buddhists work with Xing, Xing without Ming, result is a strong Xing, weak Ming, hence why it's possible to release a Yin spirit, because of the Yin state of the body from long time sitting, compare it to dying person.. What allows Yin spirit to release and cause death to regular man? Because of weak Ming - i.e. depleted yuanqi) As for sources, how about Zhongliquan. He mentions about it. You can check it in first chapter of Zhong lu chuan dao ji. If I have a moment I'll provide a quote.

Sure, but it's also important to consider that many Buddhists thought achievement of Yinshen (gui xian) to be escaping the Wheel of Samsara and stopping the rebirth. Which I think is not shedding the karama, it's like permanent death..no rebirth, no chance to achieve Yangsheng. Worse than death even.

I'm no professional translator, but what I got is different from you. I did not see where it mentioned about 9 years facing the wall, what is the rest of the context of this text? Can you share it please. What I got: "To carry out task to prevent or cure disease with sitting work (Zuogong), as well as the desire to study to become Xian, the knowledge is not passed on / transmitted." To me it is telling those who rely on methods to prevent and cure diseases (Qigong), could not be used for Alchemy.

have you confirmed this by checking the original scripture, And not the translation or interpretation on this website? Curious if you have it handy would like to see.

I am not making much sense of what you are asking, and by the way I said nothing about any path which I am on.

"the achievement of immortality is not a desire to leave the memory about oneself to descendants and not a desire to live on earth forever (and physical immortality and longevity, although considered realistically achievable, but have never been the supreme goal of Taoism), it’s realization of the supreme freedom which lives in every man, although he usually doesn’t know about it. This is described very well in Zhang Bo-duan’s “Chapters of Understanding Truth”. Thus, Taoism is not a philosophy or religion but the Way of Freedom." "Taoist alchemy is the Doctrine about finding THE UNITY. And it is not about physical or life consciousness (as they understand the spirit), but the achievement of the particular state which is the Highest Possible Human Achievement In the Realm of Spirit. The purpose of Immortality in Taoist alchemy is more aimed at the spiritual immortality rather than the physical immortality" Source: http://all-dao.com/immortality-achievements.html

I disagree, it's a "side effect" of Alchemy.. it's not the "goal" of Alchemy.

And you just said plenty of rude remarks. Eat your own words.

You asked similar questions already: http://forum.daode.ru/f1461/yangshen-nature-37713/#Content

"Anywhere in there is there mention about returning Ming by TCM?" It's what you suggested before. Hopefully it is clear for you now. Thanks.

Thanks, that's right. Which is what I mentioned, I didn't say Neijing does not contain any details about Yuanqi. But it contains nothing about replenishing it with herbs or Qigong (if I'm wrong please provide a quote). There is a big difference, which is obviously hard to see for some.

Provide a quote where it talks about restoring Yuanqi with TCM. You fail to understand the difference.

I didn't mention about any specific "style" of Alchemy. It's basic Daoist principles, and what you say goes in opposite direction to the basic principles of Daoist knowledge. As was pointed out in above comment. TCM is not Alchemy, you can check about it in Neijing. A TCM Scripture, not a Neidan one. Anywhere in there is there mention about returning Ming by TCM? I think you know the answer. Maybe you should stay in your lane, stick to TCM and not mix it with Neidan details you have no clue about (demonstrated by your comments).

Vibrations， frequencies, divine energy.. hmmm, I really do feel like I'm on a New Age board, not a Daoist one. Ahh.. Western Daoism...

Alchemy requires a-lot of 'doing' until achieved high level (when no longer normal human), then non-doing becomes possible. For human, its all about doing the hard work to get the result and transform, until then, it's a-lot of doing-youwei. Do you mind to describe 'lesser Ming' and what you mean exactly? Do you have any references from any Daoist Scriptures? As far as I see it, there is either Ming practices that return Ming-yuanqi, and practices which claim to be Ming but are not (ie false methods). Higher Ming or Lesser Ming methods I have not heard about it. If practice of Minggong exists in a School there is nothing "lower", or "lesser" about it. It's a treasure from any point of view. Sure there could be levels of effectiveness across methods/Schools, but that is also very individual to the student.