LaoZiDao

I've never tried to discuss methods, and the OP is not discussing methods either, only discuss scriptures and theory - which is all that can realistically be spoken about in a on-line forum. Not many seem to get the fact that there is no methods in texts, despite many times having much proof presented, so that is why discussions don't get far. I provide doubt because there is a lot of doubt in what's being said. And this can be backed up by using texts, and has been done several times on TTB. But many people here don't even want to discuss texts and think they are more experienced and have more valuable things to say then Masters of Quanzhen Schools. JinlianPai, it is a complex science. Methods are generally simple and not complicated, but theory and entire knowledge of all universal processes is not 'simple' and you cannot get true understanding from flowing with the flow and reading Wikipedia pages, and expect to have complete understanding life and death. Daoists accept true methods and nothing more, Daoist crush false schools to preserve genuine Daoist teachings. Being a Daoist is not about being soft and accepting of all things, especially at the cost of corrupting Daoist teachings. It is about standing for truth, and discarding all that does not assist the way to heaven.

Terms exist for a reason, the same reason they exist in modern science. Very specific words to refer to very specific things. Neidan is a science, and like most science its complex. You can chirp like a bird and sing primitive tribal songs and come up with your own ideas and conclusions all you want. But until you understand anything about the Neidan tradition you have to humble down and step back a little. Not all that long ago your not even all that sure on details of what is Yuanjing, houtian, xiantian, their relationships etc. Now you're some kind of pseudo-master. Many things you mentioned above are so far off from anything related to Neidan, yet you think it is the golden key based on your own interpretations. Its clear you have read a lot of materials, just not in the right way..

Well said Astral Monk.

The Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji (鐘呂傳道集/钟吕传道集)

Master Zhongliquan's list of false methods. You know, the teacher of Master Ludongbin, Ludongbin being the teacher of Wangchongyang.. the founder of the Quanzhen, teacher of 7 Masters? Not that they have any idea what they are talking about huh. Or we can go with "facts"

DALLAS--Research scientists at Baylor Medical Center have proven that plants, including vegetables, feel pain when subjected to trauma such as being yanked out of the ground, peeled, cooked, and eaten. "Veggies and plants initiate a massive hormone and chemical barrage internally when they suffer any kind of injury," says professor Barry Lindzer. "This response is akin to the nerve response and endorphin release when an animal is injured. We cannot ignore the similarities." www.pri.org/stories/2014-01-09/new-research-plant-intelligence-may-forever-change-how-you-think-about-plants Interesting as well: "If you read, the book of Genesis, Ch. No. 9, Verse No. 2 and 3, it says that 'They will fear you, they will dread you - all creatures of the earth, all fouls in the sky, all creatures that liveth on the earth, as well as all the fishes in the sea, they shall be delivered to you. Next Verse Genesis, Ch. 9, Verse 3 says that Every creature that moveth on land, and is a living creature - they are meat unto you, and also herbs and shrubs. Mentioned in the book of Deuteronomy, Ch. No. 14, Verse No. 9, that Ye shall have the meat of all the things in the water - All that have fins and scales, you shall eat - Deuteronomy, Ch. No. 14, Verse No. 11, says that You shall have the lawful meat of the birds. Deuteronomy Ch. No. 14, Verse No. 20 says that Ye shall eat the meat of the lawful fowls - It is allowed. Further if you read, it is mentioned in the book of Hebrews, Ch. No. 5, Verse No. 13 and 14 that If you have Milk, you are weak - if you have strong meat, you are powerful in reasoning - Bible says that not I. In the Gospel of Luke, Ch. No. 24 only quotations Verse No. 41 to 43 Jesus Christ (peace be upon him), goes in the upper room and he says Have you any meat to eat?- And the disciples gave him a piece of broiled fish and honey comb fish - and he ate before them. Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) - in the book of Romans, Ch. No. 14, Verse No. 2 and 3, it says that One who believth in eating all things, he can eat - those who are weak, they only eat herbs and shrubs - but anyone who eateth, should not insult those who eateth not - and those who eateth not, should not judge those who eateth - This is law of God"

Yeah at certain points - a lot of modern schools teach disciples to starve themselves and damage their Yuanqi from the get go (though they think it's right, from misinterpreting texts saying to do this.. etc etc.. this ain't the thread for this topic ). Might want to check this book by Dr Weston A Price 'Nutrition and Physical Degeneration - A Comparison of Primitive and Modern Diets and Their Effects' A great article here as well: http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/ancient-dietary-wisdom-for-tomorrows-children/

Peanuts are damp and fiery, some people should not have then, and if so only a small handful. Its hardly a replacement of meat. Soy milk is no where near a replacement of meat. And it is also cooling and damp, totally different function from meat (same for tofu). Protein is one thing..what about iron, zinc and amino acids etc. Iv had friends who have gone vegetarian and had to turn back to normal diet as it was not really possible -especially with today's modern food \ minerals in soil etc. Fatigue, slow thinking, less clarity are all common. In long term vegetarians I have found they are very slow thinkers and talkers. Also IMO, not eating meat is not a great moral decision. Plants also have life and karma, jingqishen, why do you eat them then? They are all part of creation. There are no cheats to shedding your karma, eating food is an exchange of energy, even animals eat other animals (and plants) they smartly do what they need too. Humans are able to digest both meat and plant, and that's what should be done IMO. Whether its plant or animal, fungus, water, rock minerals. They are all part of Dao. Edit, in saying all that I believe only small amounts of meat need to be eaten with mostly vegetables, grains etc.

Do you offer any value, or just troll?

Include Chinese references as well. And none of your own ideas or conclusions. All from the text plain and simple.

Any textual references where it says to do this? And any details on what is actually is "awareness"? Very vague term. Also what is the Chinese character from the text used as "awareness" so we can check the meanings in more detail. Still no method described, very, very vaugue. Stages of progress? Should all be in the book according to ZOOM and I'm not seeing it yet.

Question, 腎氣 kidneyqi in this way is meaning postnatal based on the nature of the character used? 氣 Where as prenatal would be 炁?

It's been said they are not secret, just you need to do some work on your own part and see for yourself - get proof yourself.

OK I gave you some time of my day and read through your analysis. I didn't see any mention of methods, ie what to actually do. Only description of some processes etc. There is no method described. How come you have so much faith in this translation of GF? "This simple and straightforward method created Immortals since ancient times!" Where is it? Simply just concentrate the thoughts on the heart?

Why such aggressive tone? Can't we just discuss in a calm manner. "as Thomas Cleary explicitly states in his translation." Luiyiming is an achieved immortal.. What weight does Clearly hold on this matter? Even clearly can be wrong Clearly's statement is not correct. There is no such thing as methods described in books..you can find several writings mentioning this. But you can insist on this of you like. You don't respect the Daoist tradition, or have any relation to it. Are you practicing a method from GF? Can you help us laypersons to understand the steps, how to do it, when to do it, deviations etc. Its all in that book, then I'm interested to see what you can tell me about the method.

Why its important to avoid schools with no linage and why you need a teacher. From ZOOMs favourite link: http://www.thesecretofthegoldenflower.com/summary.html

There is more things to it than just an exercise. Timing, consistency, repeatability, etc etc.. there is many requirements. I know what you mean, but even the same exercise looking the same from outside with maybe some minor differences can make a huge difference to the results. Same in Qigong, someone doing pole standing may get result of X, someone else doing another way of pole standing which looks the same, but has some additional things added (visualisations for example) may get results Y. About the method I know and practice, I have learned that there are several exercises from other teachers / temples around China which look very similar to it, but is not real Neidan at all. Small differences and important details making a huge difference to the result. Correct they are not the highlighted - they are popular false methods, and I would not call it "bizarre body movements". You can find it out easy though, just takes some effort on your part to meet a teacher and see what its all about

Cool, do you have any video's of the style?

And once again, where you get the idea that you know anything about my teacher? I think you assume laoziacademy.com is Wangliping's website? I believe their website is laoziacademy.us No relation between them.

I didnt even see you saying this, I guess you added it in as an edit. What gave you the impression my teacher has anything to do with this? And in reply to your questions about reading Chinese, I do read some Chinese and translate. All examples from Zhongludaoji were my own translations, but also with input from my teacher, its the only way. Why would doing this make me a teacher? I don't understand where you're coming from..or what's your point.

Yet you disagree with Quanzhen scriptures? You don't agree with Zongliquan, Ludongbin, Liuyiming... etc.. so just which Daoist doctrine do you understand and agree with? if you read ANY Daoist scripture (not butchered by English translations), all your false assumptions about Neidan will be corrected on a textual level very easily. But you can't even be bothered to learn anything or go anywhere to learn anything, just read some crap that is handed to you on a golden platter, which is nice and easy to read in English. To understand Neidan it takes a lot of work, time, dedication, persistence and practice. Not to mention having a teacher, but it's clear why you don't have a teacher anyway. You're not even looking. You know it all

Just shows you have no idea of anything that Neidan is about. End of story.

No, I am not. I have no relation to Opendao. I'm from the other side of the globe Can you answer to anything I said or just troll?

I am still waiting to hear a response on this, as it was conveniently ignored by ZOOM. This kind of mistake can put doubts on anything you have to say ZOOM, you should have some response to this, at least admit you were wrong. People like you blindly read English translations of scriptures and take them as ultimate truth...Not even 100% the translations fault here, its your own interpretations, lack of a teacher and linage which is most of the problem. You accuse Opendao of using "tricks" by actually being able to translate some Chinese, man its not tricks its called actually being able to read and understand a tradition which is being discussed here, also not only understanding but having years of experience working with Neidan. If you think Neidan is as simple as reading a website called thesecretofthegoldenflower.com without consulting a teacher and understanding the scriptures in its original form (Chinese language), you could not be more wrong. You know there is so much room for error in translations to English? Man do you know what it means to die? Qi separate from Shen = Death .. so this is Tianxian for you? Let's check what Tianxian Zhongliquan had to say about this kind of 'incorrect' practices which you take is Tianxian. BTW this crap is common, and any real achievement would not be posted on Facebook So we will start with some trickery, using Chinese characters. I didn't translate them all, just a few, and highlighted some relevant ones: On false methods: Also for the record, Opendao's "dogma" is also the same things my teacher is saying and teaching. At least my dogma works, which is more then you can say. Having never had a Neidan teacher, and probably never will at this rate.

Yuanjing and Yuanqi are similar things. If I were you I'd read the other threads here with discussions covering these. "Neidan vs Qigong" thread and a few others. "i m not gunning for immortality here...i just want to regain all the prenatal jing i had.." Refilling Yuanjing is gunning for Immortality