LaoZiDao

Powerful words Opendao, very well put.

Well lets first start with what is your understanding of xing and ming?

So as I said, the key point of this paragraph is: jing qi refining are the first job, ie starting point. Ie Ming is the starting point. Not the heart mind. As you said yourself "heart has no place to begin with" this would be better translated as heart (mind) is not the starting point, refining of jingqi is (Ming).

Yes, all texts do support this. Just people read them wrong, as you can see above. "Chi had reached its limit. Thus it was so called the guarding of the genuine Chi." Reached its limit? Can these even be explained in practical terms?

it said that jing and qi refining are the first job, ie starting point.

Fruitarian? You know what killed Steve Jobs yeah?

"I have only seen a diet of mountain herbs, mushrooms, fruits, nuts and resin attributed to them." Yep and you made it clear...for Immortals, not for regular humans / people who have not achieved the elixir. Ie higher then Renxian.

What is mostly valuable about meat is the fire which you can get from it.

By the way, plants are living creatures as well, so why don't I start a campaign to save the plants? or infact, why don't you?

The Nei jing says: “When the five internal organs are strong,… one can live long… Anyone whose five internal organs are strong is never sick… When the five internal organs are peaceful and the blood and energy are good, the body has vigor.” There are many kinds of foods, but not all of them nourish the internal organs of the human body. TCM purports that animal organs as well as five flavors nourish the organs. The five flavors are: Sour nourishes the liver, bitter nourishes the heart, sweet nourishes the spleen, pungent nourishes the lungs, and salty nourishes the spleen, pungent nourishes the heart, sweet nourishes the spleen, pungent nourishes the lungs, and salty nourishes the kidneys. Frequent eating of the five flavors improves the functioning of the internal organs. Another way to nourish the internal organs is to eat animal organs, the best being pig and sheep organs because they are most similar to human organs. Medical specialists call this effect “like attracting like.” TCM books describe pig and sheep liver as nourishing the liver, building blood, improving eyesight, and curing dizziness, night blindness, and glaucoma. The TCM prescription is: “ Take a lobe of pig liver and 10 grams of bat excrement. Powder the bat excrement, put it on the liver, and cook them for 20 minutes. Remove the bat excrement and eat the liver with its soup for seven consecutive days.” According to TCM theory, night blindness and glaucoma are caused by weakness of the liver. n eating food to nourish the internal organs, flavor the food and change the variety, This is as effective as eating organs because many vegetables and fruits also nourish the organs. The big dates produced in Hebei, Shandong, and Shanxi nourish the spleen and increase energy. Chestnuts and walnuts nourish the kidneys. Longan helps the heart and blood; Lily moistens the lungs and improves breathing, and mulberry nourishes the liver. All these foods are neutral and sweet. According to TCM theory, the foods that nourish qi and blood are liver, spinach, carrots, and animal blood. This is because the liver is the blood – building organ of animals, especially mammals. The chemicals contained in animal liver are similar to human blood and, therefore, nourish the qi and blood of the human body. Modern medical scientists are researching the use of serum from pig blood as the raw material for making substitute human plasma, which shows that animal blood nourishes human blood. Foods that nourish Jing and marrow are called “products of flesh and blood.” All animals have flesh and blood and some animals, such as the dog, horse, and ox, even have feelings. If trained, they can understand what human beings mean, so they are said to “have feelings of flesh and blood.” Many creatures have such feelings of flesh and blood. In the book Compendium of Materia Medica, Li Shizhen recorded 299 animals with hair, feathers, shells and scales. The marrow of pig and ox, and the cartilage of ox, sheep, and pig all contain rich protein, a little fat, and gelatin, which has the same effect as donkey – hide gelatin, a famous and valuable TCM drug that strengthens bones and muscles and nourishes marrow. Crab also nourishes marrow and Jing. TCM prescribes a specific way to eat crabs, the best time being the 9th and 10th lunar months. In hisCompendium of Materia Medica, Li Shizhen said: “When cooking crabs, add Dahurian angelica root to prevent damage to the crab’s ovary and digestive glands, and add onion and Chinese magnolia wine fruits to prevent color change.” The crabs must be alive, and then they must be well cooked. Liquor – saturated crabs should not be eaten because they are served raw. (Liquor is sometimes used to sterilize crabs.) Because crabs eat rotten food and poison – carrying substances, they often cause poisoning if they are not well cooked. Dead crabs should not be eaten. Yellow croaker, eek, turtle, sea cucumber, and scallops all nourish the Jing and marrow. Mix the air bladder of the yellow croaker and the Chinese herb astragali complanati together into balls to improve semen. Sea cucumber and mussels are excellent semen nourishing foods that are highly effective in improving male sexual functioning. According to scientific analysis, all these foods are nutritious, high in protein, and low in fat. Sea cucumbers contain 55.5% protein and 1.9% crude fat; mussels contain 59.1% protein and 7.6% fat. Both are mild and good for the health. When eating foods to build health, pay attention to the spleen and stomach. Once food is eaten, the functions of the spleen and stomach digest the food and absorb its nutrients. The spleen and stomach play a vital role in maintaining human life, so it is very important to protect and maintain their normal functioning. This is achieved by paying attention to both internal and external factors. The external factor is the food; in other words, food and drink must nourish the stomach. Ye Tianshi (1667 - 1746), a famous Qing Dynasty doctor, wrote the book On Warmth, which greatly influenced later generations. He believed that foods must suit the taste, and the stomach must feel good after eating them. He also said, “Food is good if the stomach likes it.” Foods the stomach likes contain nutrients needed by the human body and are easily digested. To protect the spleen and stomach, foods should be soft, warm, and stomach, foods should be soft, warm, and chewed carefully. Even highly nutritious foods will produce the opposite effect if the functions of the spleen and stomach are neglected. In spite of their rich nutrients, chicken, duck, fish, and meat that have been deep – fried or stir – fried in oil are not easily digested. If you eat more of them than you need, they will increase the burden on the spleen and stomach, and cause indigestion. To ensure the normal functioning of the spleen and stomach, it is necessary to keep a peaceful mind. Because the spleen controls the mind, excessive deliberation and thinking hurt the spleen, and if the spleen is hurt, there is no appetite for food. The nutrients the human body needs are protein, fat, sugar, vitamins, inorganic salts, and water. There are many foods in the world. Because the nutrients contained in each food vary, people should eat many different foods instead of eating only a few foods. A limited selection of food makes it difficult to obtain all the different nutrients needed by the human body. Many people who maintained good health in ancient times ate vegetarian foods. The Nei Jing says: “Excessive eating of fatty meats and fine grains is sure to cause malignant tumors. (KEYWORD EXCESSIVE) Speaking on the advantage of vegetarian foods, Dr. Sun Yat – sen, the great Chinese democratic revolutionary (1866 -1925), said: “China has invented a great variety of foods and has cooked them in so many ways that no other country can match. However, the eating and drinking habits of the Chinese people, which conform to scientific and hygienic requirements, are beyond the reach of common people in any other country. What the Chinese people drink is very often clear tea, and what they eat is simple food with some vegetables and bean curd…” And lets remember China's soil is much more nutritious then USA, Australia and the UK! Buddhism does not strictly require vegetarianism. Buddhists of the Mongolian, Tibetan, and Dai nationalities in China, who believe in Dacheng Buddhism, all eat meat because meat is more plentiful than vegetables where they live. So yes, it all depends where you live, you see people were smart enough to know what they need when they need it... instead of following a global trend of not eating vege because of their emotional feelings towards animals. From a modern, scientific viewpoint, diet should emphasize vegetarian food but contain a combination of vegetarian and meat dishes. This is because vegetarian food promotes the normal movement of the stomach and intestines. Zhu Danxi (1281 - 1358), a noted medical scientist in the Yuan Dynasty, said: “If grains, beans, vegetables, and fruits naturally taste mild, they will nourish the human body and improve the male organs.” The Nei Jing says, “Vegetables are prescribed for a fear of hunger or if there is too much worry, which hurts the stomach. Vegetables are used to help dredge the stomach and intestines, and improve digestion. This is the benevolence of the Heaven, Earth, and living matters.” This passage says vegetarian foods cleanse the stomach and intestines, and their cellulose aids digestion, promotes intestinal peristalsis, and relieves constipation. The cellulose in vegetable expands in water to form a close network that absorbs inorganic salts, organic acids, and water. This simple process adjusts the digestive and absorptive functions of the intestines, affects the metabolism of the human body, and helps prevent disease. Scientists believe that eating more cellulose – rich foods, such as coarse grains, beans, corn, celery, cabbage, chives, and Chinese cabbage, can help prevent enteritis and intestinal cancers. Some people spit out the “residue” when they eat vegetables, but this is a mistake because that residue is the cellulose that is indispensable to the human body. Foreign research shows that Europeans and Americans have more than ten times the incidence of intestinal cancer than do Africans. The reason is believed to be diet. Europeans and Americans eat only a fraction of the cellulose that Africans do. Science shows that meat and vegetable dishes should be well blended, preferably with the total quantity of vegetables being two or more times that of meat. Vegetables have five advantages: They contain vitamins that aid digestion, they prevent nutritional deficiencies, they help prevent obesity, they improve blood circulation, and they prevent and help cure cancers.

Cool a crappy modern book that is supported by Bill Clinton, an elite scum bag who cares nothing for your well-being.

I was going to stay out of this one.. but here I go. Humans are designed to eat meat, our organs process meat very well! do you really think you are doing yourself or animals a favor? Do you think a lion gives a shit when he slaughters a deer and eats it? No, it is called survival. By the way, the environmental footprint left from modern agricultural methods destroys natural habitats, kills millions of animals, and destroys their homes .....polluted with pesticides and all kinds of chemicals. By logic that most vegetarians use.. you are also killing animals by supporting the agricultural industry... so by ths logic you should stop eating vegetarian too. The land is destroyed, raped of its minerals and not put back due to modern agricultural methods etc. There are countless cases of people being unhealthy, malnutrition, bones growing incorrectly, posture problems.. all because of vege diet. Sure vege diet is okay in some cases but not for most people, but honestly in the modern day.... most western country's soil does not contain enough nutrition (organic or not, it is still grown in malnourished soil, you can research this), this is why it is dangerous to eat vege only, you simply will not get enough of what you need nutritionally. Yes there does exists supplements, but they are far from natural and they put extreme burden on the liver and kidney to process. They can be taken, but you need to know what you are doing, and take no where near the amounts recommended. But hey I am talking from a Neidan point of view, but also regular people need meat anyway, practitioners need meat.. especially at the beginning stages. A practitioner cannot go without it. You should look up Weston A Price and his research on nutritional deficiencies etc. ........ in conclusion for you all There is a segment of our population who want to elevate animal life to the same status as human life. This does not limit animal suffering but simply devalues human life. Suffering is part of life. We all cringe when we watch the nature show and the lion takes down the limping baby zebra. It's sad. But it's life. Not accepting life as it is and not accepting your role in it (especially trying to pretend you're not participating by not eating meat or eggs) is delusional. Thank you for reading, not interested in an argument. Enjoy my point of view.

"A person by the moniker of Insider claimed he was from a ruling bloodline and gave the people a chance to ask everything they wanted and Insider would answer. At first it looks like another internet hoax, some lightweight questions were followed by lightweight answers, but then things started changing drastically..." Read it here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/403303/The-Revelations-of-an-Elite-Family-Insider-2005 IMO this is a great text that does hold some value for the modern times. You can read it multiple times and pick up new things as you do each time, this shows it does contain truths. To me it sounds like this guy comes from a Western / European Alchemical Order, and does perhaps have a method of Alchemy.

A great part of this text: "There is just 1 struggle and it is now, here on this planet and on a personal level....meaning you only. There is no enemy you can attack except yourself. If you are busy attacking something else, you are wasting precious energy and you will fail.If you succeed, there will be no struggle anymore"

This is a thread about Neidan, what is Neidan? It is a science, a very complex science. So yes there is correct ways and incorrect ways. Just like science/chemistry, you cannot do what you want and make up your own ideas and formulas (and if you did you would already be a Master of chemistry and you would know what you are doing), for people who are not Masters, they are students... generally there is a specific way and order to do things in a labratory to get the result you are after. What happens when you go to a labrotory and mix random chemicals, random substances, heat them, freeze them, mix them... 99.99% of the time if you did this without instruction or knowledge of what you are working with......you will harm your self, create dangerous concoctions, make an explosions. etc So there is a specific way of Neidan, as it is too a science, and it is working with a very complex thing, the human body, sky and earth. I understand you have no interest in Neidan / Daoist Alchemy. And that is fine, but this is what this thread is about, it is not about 'general Daoist discussion" on philsophical points that you feel attached to. There is a lot to gain from this post, it is a translation of an ancient scripture, which has been translated quite decently. Anyone who is interested in Dao should be very greatful of the Wuluipai students to go out of their way to share this wonderful knowledge. This thread is not about the OPs doubts, it is a anceint text from Ludongbing and Zhongliquan, who are Daoist Alchemical Masters, have been greatly respected for thousands of years. It is to help guide people to know what Neidan is, and what Neidan is not. As it is a very specific thing, it is not just "do what you want and follow your own way". There was no argument of which path is better, but this is about what Neidan is, and what it is not. You can beleive what you want, but there is a very clear line between methods of Immortals and methods of general health and wellbeing (qigong etc). It is a suprise you have not heard of him, Ludongbing is actaully famous all over China, not just in Neidan cirlces. All Chinese will know of him and some will know his famous story about the Yellow Millet Dream, which also has a popular Opera about it. So culturally in China he is very respected and praised.. even if they have no interest of Daoism, all Chinese know about him. Actaully this is not true for Neidan, but I won't argue this point here.

Sigh

And do you even know who Wu Chung-Xu is?

Read again....."general principles" not methods

Sure so what are the principles then?

Cool, so what are Burton Watson's achievemnts in Neidan? It is a simple question with a simple answer. Typical new age theorys, no understanding of what you are every talking about. The mind is your teacher? Shishen? is your teacher? Okay well that does not align with anything that is discussed in Neidan classics. So why are you here then, what do you have to learn, your 'mind' already knows the secrets of life and death..apparently understands Neidan in full.. there is no need for a transmission for you, so in that case why are you even here on this earth? The most important points of Neidan are not writen down (ie that is to say methods are not written down), they are handed down in person from Master to student, transmitted by word of mouth and instruction and demonstrations given where needed. When an alchemical Master writes a book, they are very cautious about what is said. Ignore this at your own risk.

Where I said that? I never said that.

Yep, that is how today we have hybrid super religion groups, all books and traditions mashed together to form a super new age, new world religion. From Laozi to jesus, Indian Dream catchers to Aborigional stories, somehow they are all related according to them, heh :\

You need to cultivate Youwei before Wuwei. Youuwei meaning you have to activity persue Dao, train hard, with effort. You cannot achieve anything without effort, so how is it that you understand Wuwei? The wheel wont turn by it self, not without first taking action and effort.

You misunderstood number 27. Retreating to mountains is not a method.

GrandmasterP, i know a Master who is Chinese and says the same things. Funny that isn't it.