Nathan

This is akin to gas-lighting when someone calls you a name, you defend yourself or others, and then the original name-caller says that you're the one that started it and YOU should behave better! lol I have enough of this nonsense at home with my wife.

Virtue, 1. This is why I don't come on this forum often. Perhaps it isn't your intention virtue, but your tone is very condescending. In order to have a fruitful conversation, some basic ground rules apply (as we're adults). #1. Name-calling, such as Walker did towards my Shifu and Bright-Heart, are non-sequitur. I can't have a conversation with someone that isn't interested in really having one, only in playing "gotcha!" 2. I already did answer your question, but here it is again: "They are no longer here. They never taught nor ordained Westerners and Americans. They didn't have to deal with the PRC. They don't much have a say anymore. Regardless, it seems that the requirement for celibacy is not set-in-stone within Quanzhen or Longmen."

I would be very happy to do so, but cannot when logical fallacies are being used by the counter-point. Walker's name-calling and adversarial stance, make having any kind of meaningful and elucidating conversation very unlikely to happen. And this is NOT my fault. To answer your questions: "So what do you figure your Quanzhen lineage founders feeling about her altering the standard of celibacy and relaxing the priestly vows?" They are no longer here. They never taught nor ordained Westerners and Americans. They didn't have to deal with the PRC. They don't much have a say anymore. Regardless, it seems that the requirement for celibacy is not set-in-stone within Quanzhen or Longmen. I'll ask again: "Where is it proscribed for a Longmen Priest to marry?" If you can't find a law, or an edict, saying so, then it isn't so. If bright-Heart says it's Kosher, (And She's the one that decides what's kosher and for whom) then by golly it is to me.

Abbess Bright-Heart seems to not mind all of these lovely, married Longmen Priests and people behind her.

I would have to disagree. Walker is free to have his own opinions, but his name-calling and agenda aren't welcome and do not help.

There's so much misinformation, speculation, and circular-logic in this post that it's going to be hard to respond to, but here goes.... "If only these American "priests" took the time to learn Chinese, study the Daoist Canon, and live in the communities they claim to represent, they might realize that something indispensable is missing from what they have been given. But given that they do not take the time to truly learn about the tradition, perhaps they just don't want to know. " 1. My Shifu Patrick, grew up in a Chinese Monastery, raised by a Chinese man, in San Francisco and was trained in Ch'an and Zheng Yi Dao (I received his father's lineage as well). He reads, writes, and speaks fluent Chinese (of several dialects). He has spent YEARS in China wandering, and training. "This is ironic, because we can see the absolute respect paid to tradition here by Master Fu Yuantian... and this man is one of the main teachers of Zhang Mingxin, the nun who is evidently now telling all these Americans and other westerners that they can be "priests" in the Quanzhen Longmen without being ordained as monks or nuns! It's not just that Zhang Mingxin was his disciple--she even is on record recently quoting him about how important the strictures are and parroting his words to younger generations of Chinese disciples! Evidently somehow this central importance is being omitted for the Americans, who now would like to sell you "priesthood" for several thousand of your dollars and several precious years of your life." 2. No one sold me ordination for thousands of dollars. I underwent a Daoist Seminary for three years, at the culmination of which I was ordained. Yes, the Seminary costs money. If you become a Catholic Priest you have to pay for Seminary School. This is a moot point. people have to eat...... I'm not even going to get into the minutiae of what constitutes Daoshi from Daozhang. It looks like Walker's red-herring and strawman riddled posts have an axe to grind. Walker, are you a Longmen Priest? Why so emotional? Why has this struck a nerve with you? Why the defamation, character assassination, and ad hominem? Here is a response directed towards yourself Walker. Take it as you like it. "If somebody asks you those questions they show their ignorance. There are no Taoist lineage that mandate celibacy and renunciation unless they are specifically focused on that, which ours is not. Zhang Shifu was very clear in our platform statement that we are a non-monastic platform because she understood that when Taoism came to the west it would need to be accessible to western people. Celibacy and renunciation are not western concepts nor are they the point when following the Dao. If you go back to the Tang Dynasty or even the Ming Dynasty you might find that they advocated it, but that was within their cultural context and it fell out of favor. But in Zhengyi The priests always married and had kids, because it’s 100% Dao. Zhang Shifu being the secretary general of the China Taoist Association makes all concessions and rules for all ordained Taoist worldwide. She does not mandate and as the Abbot of this lineage neither do I. People who think you cannot be Quanzhen and married are just bookworms who read too much and know too little about how things really work today"

damdao, That is correct. I was ordained as a Priest, not a Monk (Although Monk was an option and did come with restrictions).

It seems that all questions have been adequately answered. I'm not going to become embroiled in poo-flinging towards my Shifu, and my Great-Shifu. I'll not defend them anymore, as they don't require it. Again, I'm a Daoshi of Four Dragons (Qingcheng Mt. Longmen Houston Branch), and if there are any more questions I'll do my best to answer them privately via message. Thank You.

It has nothing to do with "spiritual penis measuring" and everything to do with competence. Show me any leader that doesn't have detractors? The "glory goes to the man in the arena" in this case a woman. Of course the CDA is flawed, as it's set up to be adversarial by the Chinese Government. If you treasure the Temples and Sects that still remain in China then thank Zhang Shifu, because she stands on the front lines of preserving them.

Abbess Bright-heart is a fantastic woman! In a country where boys are more prized than girls, where women's rights are still being struggled for. Abbess Bright-Heart has risen through the ranks of a man's world to become one of the most "powerful" (read influential) Daoists in China. Yes, she's a Communist. A good Communist, as all Chinese citizens must be. She plays a high-wire balancing act, preserving Daoism, while at the same time making liaison with a Government (whom would like nothing more than to burn every Daoist and Buddhist Temple). Perhaps in your rush-to-judgement you've failed to see how the Longmen may evolve as they move westward, that Daoism (Yes even Longmen) will evolve as it meets Western Culture. I've seen no evidence presented that it is not allowed for a Western Longmen Priest to marry? Certainly the plethora of married Western Longmen Priests would like to know Walker (in your normal eloquent tone of course)?

Hello, Walker. I wasn't purposely ignoring your questions, I just don't really check this site much anymore. I think to answer your first question, perhaps you should ask Zhang-Shifu herself? She isn't all that hard to contact. Given that she's the #2 Daoist in China under the Chinese Daoist Association (About to be #1), as well as being the head Nun of Qingcheng Longmen, I'm certain that she has all of the right reasons, faculties, and authority to make such a proclamation for Western Students. But I'm certain that she will consider your position on the matter in haste, given your exhaustive experience!

That is spot on.

I

It’s a good book but one, like mentioned above best studied with a teacher. It is studied in my Daoist lineage (Longmen). It does not contain the complete Bi Fa, which is taught Master to student still. If one wants to practice Internal Alchemy, The Secret of the Golden Flower is a much more direct method (Though you can’t learn that either from Wilhelm or even Cleary / Books) it is again passed down orally.

Hello All, There is most definitely energy work in the Western systems. These are usually taught within the various secret societies, and fringe Masonic groups. This energy work can also be found in the Gnostic, Hassidic, & Sufi communities, and in certain Christian sects such as the practice of the Jesus Prayer. Energy work in the West mainly consists of meditation upon the heart center, and merging it with the mind center, and in focusing upon deity such as Christ and merging with this Energy. It is a form of circulation, although it is viewed differently than in the Eastern systems. The "grace" of Apostolic Succession and the laying on of hands to cure illness, is definitely a form of energy work, although it is viewed more in the context of divine energy coming from an outside Godhead; working through but not from the individual (however, the Hermetic Axiom "As Above, So Below" indicates that this is indeed the same thing!). Having belonged to numerous Western Esoteric Orders, I can say that the Traditional Chinese or Daoist energy work is much more nuanced and developed than in the West, especially from a natureopathic perspective. Alchemy in the West was definitely influenced by the Alchemy in the East. In Hechalot Kabbalah and Merkhaba mysticism, there is somewhat of a resemblance to Kriya Yoga, and other Kundalini / Chi / Prana practices. All of this is not surprising as there really is no East or West, there is just one round globe. The Silk Road was a melting pot of mystical and magickal traditions stretching from Africa to China.

I've been taking these online lessons (live, via skype) for two months now. The lessons are effective, and even though the students and the teacher may be separated by thousands of miles, it feels as if we're in the same room together. So far, I've only learned some of the Daogong movements, but already I feel much better, and certain chronic health ailments have either lessened, or are completely gone. I have lost weight, and have a general sense of well-being, centered-ness,and balance. I am sleeping much better as well. I was taking prescription pain medication, and sleep medication for several years, and I haven't had any for several weeks. There is a definitive buzzing, vibration, or warmth throughout my body after having practiced, and also a warm flowing sensation that accompanies it. I'm not knowledgeable enough to explain what these feeling are, but I can only judge by my physical improvements that it relates to Chi, and unblocking channels. I will be a life-long practitioner of what I am learning, and am looking forward to hopefully learning the first level of YuXianPai internal alchemy in a month or so. I'm very greatful to Shifu Alexey for making this valuable system open and available to those of us whom are English speakers, and live far away from St. Petersburg. I hope I am fortunate enough to be able to attend a seminar there one day. Until then, I will practice what I have learned diligently.

Dear Bums, Greetings, In the Rite of Arcana Arcanorum there is a 40 day operation to reach "immortality"(A.'.A.'.). This Rite is commonly attached to the various systems of esoteric Freemasonry known as the Rites of Misraim / Memphis. According to "occult history" this Rite is ultimately derived from the Temple of Isis at Naples, Italy which has existed openly and in secret for thousands of years. I notice many similarities and yet some differences between the A.'.A.'. and what is described by the Secret of the Golden Flower for instance. In the western inner alchemical methods are included: Fasting, the uses of herbs, tinctures, and seclusion. Ritual bathes, and breathing excercises. The ultimate aim of the A.'.A.'. is to rebuild the "light body" thereby attaining an immortality of the consciousness after the mortal coil falls away. The A.'.A.'.draws heavily from Lamblicus and the Theory of the Vehicle of Soul, as well as certain Pythagorean doctrinal views. This attainment of "immortality" is common to both Western (A.'.A.'.) and Eastern (Neidan) methods. Both are used to develop the light body aka: chi, aka: prana. Where the two systems differ from my viewpoint, are in that the Western systems use a great deal of allegory and symbolism, not allowing the neophyte to directly know the methods or ultimate aim until the very pinnacle, whereas with the Eastern systems it seems that they "cut straight to-the-chase" from the very beginning. Does anyone else have experience in both systems? And how do you think they compare to each other in similarity, or differences? Do you think one system influenced the other? How and why? Thanks.

The left and right hand path dichotomy is a very hard one to pin down. Some systems use both. However, it is not true that one is "good" and the other is "bad." Tantra for instance is Left hand path work, and thats precisely the context I used Taoism in, when I described it thus, as it correlates. What is your definition? You say you disagree, but do not provide a rebutal? It really doesnt matter. It was a small point made that has little bearing on the topic at hand.

Perhaps they are superficial. But what better way to learn than to leave one's thoughts, however flawed, open to criticism, and correction? In the Western philosophical milieu, there's a great reliance on the "Socratic method." Whereby one's statement is not necessarily attached to the ultimate truth, and the statement giver holds no personal attachment to the statement made, in the name of the truth. Thereby what is true, or most true, can be distillated via the debate. I welcome such criticism. Thank you. Is it true? That's a good question. "Blinds" abound in all systems. However, from my limited experience, it seems that Taoism (not necessarily individual Taoists) place less reliance on blind faith, and more reliance on experimental knowledge. In the Western sense, this would be termed "the left-hand path." One thing that I personally find for certain, is that there's a great deal less stigma involved with Eastern metaphysics, as opposed to the Western versions found hidden in secret, due to a history of the rack and flame. This has influenced the egregore of Western systems a great deal. Hence, a very cloak and dagger approach by many authentic Western systems.

Dear Fellow Bums, Greetings, This is my first thread on TTB's. I've taken a great interest in all things Taoist. For the last 10 plus years I've been involved in a variety of Western Initiatic Systems and societies. In the pinnacle of most of these are theurgy and inner alchemy. While investigating these aspects, I talked with a friend in Europe, whom told me that the Eastern (more especially Taoist) inner alchemical methods were more direct and effective. I can't comment on this claim, however it spurred me to further investigation. In one system for instance, (Martinism) inner alchemy is heavily taught and practiced. Being an initiate of this system I find it to be very good. Another Martinist acquaintance of mine several years ago, recommended the book "The Secret of the Golden Flower" in a conversation we had in regards to the Arcana Arcanorum, and the body of light. So two friends recommending Taoist alchemy was enough for me to be convinced that it was a worthy path. I've noticed that they're many different schools, sects, pathes etc. and I've always been of the opinion that one should follow one system, as following to many leaves one spread too thin. I personally found this to be true after belonging to multiple Western systems, all of which had very similar doctrine and goals at the core. The same friend above whom recommended the Golden Flower, gave me a very good analogy that: "Initiatic schools are like a wheel. A wheel is round and a wheel has spokes. You can go from one spoke of the wheel to the center of the wheel, but you can also just go around and around the wheel by jumping to different spokes." That being my philosophy as well, I want to make sure before I embark with a Taoist sect (if they'll have me) that they are 1. Accessible, 2. Not Dogmatic, and 3. Have a valid lineage. Now, I don't wish to incite lineage wars here. I've seen plenty of such in Western systems and they bore me. But I would like to spurn a sane, positive, and informative thread on which schools are out there, and available to Jews whom live in Kentucky. (Insert Smiley) Attached is a PDF I found online, which describes several of these schools, but none of which are available in my area. I noticed several schools are missing. Thanks. teachers.pdf

This is a problem with the Western Systems as well. There are many magickal / alchemical orders which make many great claims of antiquity and validity, but in reality they were formed in the late 1800's and much of their teachings were plagiarized from other sources. There are very few authentic schools, which carry on a valid chain of initiation. This doesn't mean the other "neo" orders are wrong, or bad, but their "occult history" is rather misleading. Many of the true schools do not have an internet presence and exist purely in the invisible (for good reasons). All systems have merit, whether they have a valid lineage or not. We can learn from "bad", just as we can from the "good." But for myself, I'd like to belong to a solid group, which tranfers authentic teachings and lineage. Or at the least, does not claim to have such an illustrious background, but none-the-less, have an effective method.

Taomenow, This is exactly what I was looking for in response. Thank you. I'm hear to learn and grow. I come with years of "baggage" which I do not view as absolute truth, but simply indoctrination or education that I've been exposed to in this life. It is natural for this to become a hindrance when learning something new. I find myself when learning about the Tao, saying: "Oh, that's like such-and-such in Western systems. Old dogs and tricks, etc. Very nice response.

I think the Silk Road has many untold stories to tell. The more I experience other cultures, and societies the more I see similarities and not differences. What intrigues me, is the openness and acceptance of "esotericism" in the East, as opposed to the West, where it is much more cloak-and-dagger. I think both have their plus' and minus', but I favor a more open, and direct method. I've read that Taoism was influenced by the Nestorians, and possibly the Thomasine Christians and vice-a-versa. It's interesting that the Tao is the same name given to Gnostic Christianity in it's beginning, aka "The Way." Unfortunately, Christianity, as well as, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, et al. have become overly dogmatic. Not that there's anything wrong with that, just that it's not the right approach for me. Taoism, it certainly is.

My name is Nathan. I live in Lexington, Kentucky. I'm about to embark on my journey shortly with Yang style Tai Chi. I have a strong background in the Western esoteric arts, but in my search, came acrossed Taoism. Actually, several years ago, a friend recommended the "Secret of a Golden Flower," as being revelant to the Western System of internal alchemy (more especially in regards to the "light body" work of the Arcana Arcanorum). I bought that book, but never really read it. Fast forward to several months ago, and I decided to pick it up and read it. I was astounded by the simplicity as compared to the western systems, and the seemingly much more accessibility in the West to it's doctrine. Since reading this book, I've picked up the Tao Te Ching, and the I-Ching. I'm hooked. I would like to ask if anyone here is also from Kentucky, and if they could recommend a reputable Taoist school, from which to attain initiation, and instruction? All the very best,