Aeran

I'm not trying to prove anything or claiming to know anything, except that the attitude of making assumptions about things you know nothing about is counterproductive. It's the same attitude which leads people to believe that everything discussed on this board (spirituality, metaphysical energies, etc) is "new age nonsense" or "pseudo-science" or "superstitious woo" or however they prefer to term it - they haven't experienced something and/or they lack the knowledge to understand how it could occur, so they automatically assume that it couldn't occur instead of just accepting that it could potentially be an aspect of reality which is outside of their range of knowledge/experience at the present. It's the kind of faulty logic and close-minded thinking which holds back serious inquiry into any field of knowledge.

So you've examined absolutely every system of cultivation out there in existence and the abilities they produce in detail? Performed studies to demonstrate that these abilities are consistent across trainees? I had no idea such detailed scientific study had been done on the subject :| Please by all means link your results, I'd love to read them.

You guys sure know a lot about this person and his organization. You must have all traveled to Italy and met these people personally, right? Spent time with them, discussed their training and witnessed their capabilities? Come on :/ I have no idea if this guy is legit or not - in fact I have no idea who he is and had never heard of him until I clicked this thread, but automatically writing someone off as a fraud without definite reasons to make the accusation is childish, close minded and rude. Why not just accept that you have no idea who this guy is and what he is or isn't capable of and leave it at that?

Looks interesting, will keep an eye on it.

I wouldn't agree with that definition - I don't know anyone who considers themselves a mystic who believes that mystical knowledge, experience or states can be attained "without effort."

No idea, but I really wish our society was at a stage where we could study the subject and find out. Oh well :/

Is there a basic summary of what Kunlun is about, what it entails in terms of practice, what it's ultimate goals are, etc. somewhere? I've heard people say a lot of stuff about Kunlun ever since I started reading this board, but I always feel like most of it goes over my head, like everyone read a book about the system that I didn't or something :/

How does he define "Fire Path" and "Water Path"?

I think the conspiracy theory thing is a bit much - too much money and attention has been screwing kids up from the beginning of the human race. She's just acting it out in a very public way because modern media technology allows for that. 10 years from now she'll probably be doing a bunch of feel-good philanthropy if she manages to avoid joining the 27 club.

That doesn't sound like a problem with a specific energy blockage(s) so much as some deep seated psychological issues with anxiety and self esteem. Energy healing etc. certainly can't hurt (if done properly), but going off what you've said I think what you really need is to find a good therapist and talk through your issues, maybe get some cognitive behavioral therapy as well.

Not that this isn't horrific, but is there a better source than the Daily Mail? I find it kind of hard to take anything they say seriously. And why Falun Gong? What is it about that sect in particular which makes it target for discrimination?

Personally I use a point a little further back than #4, there's a kind of crease right at the roof of my palate which I rest the tip of my tongue on. That said, I was taught that #2 is also valid, the difference being that that connecting behind the teeth produces more yang energy, which connecting to the roof of the palate produces more yin energy. Being rather yin deficient, I stick with the roof. I'd stick with whichever point is recommended by the specific set of instructions you're following, instead of confusing yourself with contradictory information on the internet.

This is what stuck out immediately when I read your post. My knowledge of different meditative postures isn't huge, but I have been told repeatedly, from multiple sources, that this particular posture will stir up sexual, generative energy in a powerful way and should only be used by those who've gone into retreat and aren't caught up in the bustle of day to day life. Maybe try meditating in a different posture and see what difference that makes after a while?

I know. I know everything. Did you fools really think you could hide your activities from the MPEF (Mo Pai Eradication Force)? You think it's just a forum faction but oh, it's so much more... We have people in security agencies all over the world looking for just a hint that someone is trying to spread the truth, to warn the world that Mo Pai is the only true cultivation method, that every other system is a part of our elaborate ruse to scam billions and repress humanity. We monitor every post on your forums, every word said in your skype group, your phones, your social media accounts. None of you can hide from us!

Yeah the... dubious nature of Randi's "challenge" has been known for a while now. Here's another interesting commentary: http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2006/12/the_challenge.html http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2006/12/the_challenge_p.html http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2006/12/the_challenge_p_1.html http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/michael_prescotts_blog/2006/12/the_challenge_a.html Some interesting accounts from scientists who have tried to organize undertaking the challenge - the second one is particularly interesting because it demonstrates that Randi is willing to straight up lie to the public to maintain his credibility: http://www.skepticalaboutskeptics.org/investigating-skeptics/whos-who-of-media-skeptics/media-skeptics-m-z/randi-james/james-randi-reneges-on-the-randi-prize/ http://www.skepticalaboutskeptics.org/investigating-skeptics/whos-who-of-media-skeptics/media-skeptics-m-z/randi-james/james-the-amazing-randi-and-dogs-who-know-more-than-he-does/ Before reading that I always figured Randi was stubborn and arrogant but basically well meaning. Now I sometimes wonder if he isn't consciously aware of the evidence out there which would disprove the worldview he's built his career on and maintaining a front to prevent the blow to his reputation. Either way, his "test" is meaningless as anything but a testament to the ability of one man to leech fame and public attention. Well MPG has done an amazing job indoctrinating you into his worldview. I don't have time to offer a full rebuttal right now, but don't you think it's a bit ridiculous to call me a smirking liar in one paragraph then offer me blessings etc. a few later? Oh, and I don't smirk, I twirl my moustache. Like this: Then I pet my white cat while laughing as my secret conspiracy against the Mo Pai freedom fighters proceeds to crush the valiant battle for truth which threatens my income from the thousands of fake cultivation books and DVD's I publish to fund my vast multimillion criminal empire with. Mwhuahhahahaha.

It isn't a teacher's obligation to prove themselves to anyone, certainly not to people who aren't willing to give them the time of day unless they play lab rat. If Chang had had the same attitude you do, he would never have been initiated into the Mo Pai lineage - as I recall from his account in the book, his master didn't demonstrate his powers until several years into Chang's training. Isn't worth the trouble to find a complete and legitimate system with a living lineage? You have strange priorities. you have no idea how many there are or aren't if you've never taken the time to search. Running around actively accusing people of being fraudulent because you can't be bothered to find out whether they are or aren't is absolutely absurd and arrogant. If you simply said "I have no idea if X is legitimate because I have no experience with it," then nobody would care. Are you training under John Chang, his nominated successor or someone with current approval to transmit the Mo Pai teachings from either of those two individuals? Because if you aren't, then you aren't training in the Mo Pai lineage. Not necessarily. Putting aside the issue of learning from books and online instructions and leaked emails, a lineage is more than a collection of techniques and exercises. Remember the section of Magus of Java where Kosta receives a sign from the spirit of Chang's teacher after breaking his oath and speaking to a friend about what he'd learned after his first visit to Chang? Or the fact that Chang cut off all the Western students after being ordered to do so by a spirit further back in the lineage? You should think on those events. Compared to what? You have no idea what is or isn't "placebo" because you haven't taken the time to investigate different systems. I also find Danaos' thoughts on the issue rather interesting: Or are the Naropa Yogas and Chen Taiji both "placebo gong" because there are no videos of practitioners settings newspapers on fire? What about Kundalini Yoga, which he dedicated a sizable portion of his second book to discussing? Did he do that just to placate the "delusional new-agey space cadets"? An admirable attitude, but it rather contradicts your whole "everything is bunk unless it's been filmed while some dudes with some kind of science degrees are present, then uploaded on youtube" attitude. Unless there's a youtube video of God floating around I've missed. So basically wherever he disagrees with you, it's obvious to you that he really actually agrees with you, but doesn't want to say so. Right... Written instructions aren't "oral transmission" by definition - that's leaving out all the problems caused by the absence of a teacher. Chang learned by training directly, in person, at the feet of a man who had mastered the system himself. There's a big difference between that and using books/leaked emails/online instruction. I didn't misread you at all, in fact this is a perfect example of what I was talking about - when I mentioned that Danaos was prone to the same human biases as everyone else, you got wildly defensive (presumably because you support your worldview with statements from his books), but now you're accusing him of outright lying to defend your own position when he disagrees with your worldview. It's a tad contradictory. And there is no "anti-Mo Pai" faction here, but there's definitely an anti-"people who practice alleged Mo Pai techniques without permission from the lineage using written/leaked/third hand instructions, encourage others to do so, and then barge into random discussions claiming that anybody else who doesn't do so is just roleplaying and that any master who doesn't have a youtube video of them demonstrating energetic powers is a complete fraud" sentiment. I said it once in reference to a specific train of discussion, but what can I say, I'm a sucker for debates And I think someone should take the effort to counter the toxic rhetoric put out by the members of your group. Nobody is forcing you to reply.

How do they know what a given teacher/system is or isn't capable of if they've never investigated it? The irony of this whole thing is that if it hadn't been for a communication error between Chang and a documentary crew 20 odd years ago, Chang would never have been revealed to the West and you, lacking your youtube videos, would disbelieve anyone who came online claiming they had met this man who could perform all these feats which are labelled as impossible by current Western scientific consensus. How do you know "almost 100 percent of all systems are placebo" when you've never investigated them, never encountered their teachers or practitioners? Don't even know they exist? Don't you see how absurd and arrogant that stance is? You aren't invested in Mo Pai though, the real Mo Pai school is in Asia and has no idea who you are. You're invested in the interpretation of Mo Pai being spread online by a guy who trained under a guy who trained with Mo Pai for a few years before being cut off. See that makes no sense to me. Instead of wasting years of your life in a dead end pseudo-system before seeking out a legitimate master, why not seek one out now and begin training directly under them? If you know you're eventually going to have to find a master anyway, why put it off? No, because if they openly string up Kosta, they lose the ability to cite his books as a textbook/manual and thus lose most of their legitimacy. So basically you've decided to completely reinterpret what he's said to fit your own assumptions? The bolded part is good advice though - you should listen to him. I know it's easy to just sit back and accept online guides from someone who trained under someone who trained under someone etc etc. but you'd be much better off in the long run going outside your comfort zone, putting in a little effort and finding a living, genuine lineage which meets your needs.

Plenty of people have claimed it over the course of these Mo Pai debates. Then why not spend less time arguing on the internet or trying to piece together a incomplete system from third hand sources, and more time traveling, meeting teachers, investigating other systems, until you find one which you are satisfied is legitimate? Why not seek out your own evidence, find your own path and gain legitimate instruction? Even if the alleged Mo Pai training offered online works, and you manage to complete it safely, what happens when you finish level 2 or 3 or whatever it is and have nowhere further to go? Just going to point out that that opinion directly contradicts the opinion of the writer of the books which you seem to hold in such high esteem. Danaos compares Mo Pai to several other systems in both Magus of Java and Nei Kung, and openly expresses his belief that these other systems are valid in his books and in interviews he has given.

I'm not going to drag this out into a massive back & forth, since I don't see anything productive coming from that, but I would like to say that I am not "anti-Mo Pai." Although it isn't a school I would personally choose to train in, I don't have any problem with those who have chosen to seek out legitimate instruction within the lineage and I wish them success in their training. My problem is with those who claim that the Mo Pai method is the only functional one, or who push people to attempt the training without legitimate, personal and direct instruction from the lineage (this includes the cases of people who have been given instructions from students of Kosta and McMillan, both of whom were disavowed by the lineage, and as far as I know never had permission to train people in Mo Pai to begin with). Such individuals would be much better off seeking out personal tutelage from another living and complete lineage.

This. A lot of people confuse the two when the subject comes up. the original Emerald Tablet is a classic text on Hermetic philosophy, the more modern "Emerald Tablet of Thoth" is, I would guess from the parts of it I've bothered to read, most likely a fabrication.

Hi, This is a Mo Pai thread now, so your gut is probably correct, but it's too late now No I didn't. I haven't read Jim's book, but I enjoyed Kosta's books (even though I disagree with a lot of his theories, and the way he presents them as more factual or scientific than they actually are). Magus of Java was a great "spiritual travelogue," and I enjoyed the anecdotes and speculation put forth in Nei Kung. I found both books entertaining and inspirational, despite the parts I don't agree with. What I criticized is the people on the internet who use these books as some kind of gospel regarding internal arts (or even worse, attempting to use them as a manual to duplicate the Mo Pai training - and I will criticize Kosta here for encouraging that in his second book, which I felt was an incredibly irresponsible move), just because they're written by men who spent some time training under a man with powerful energetic abilities. I pointed out that the teachings were conveyed to Kosta and Jim via translator, that having spent time training with Chang doesn't make the authors any less prone to personal bias or misinterpretation, and that statements or instructions which are given within the context of training in a specific system shouldn't be generalized to apply to all systems, or to metaphysical models in general. No I didn't. What I said, again, is that what applies in one system shouldn't be universalized to all systems. Until we can actually study these phenomena in a lab, there's absolutely no way of knowing whether what one system refers to as Yin Chi is even the same force as that which another system gives the same name. Mo Pai divides vital energy into two strict categories - Yin and Yang. There are other systems out there which have anywhere from a single category to dozens of categories. Until we can find a way to better understand how different systems relate to eachother, they should each be treated as separate and unique, with comparisons confined to broad speculation or personal opinion. The problem is that you don't have access to their teachings, unless you happen to be a personal student of John Chang or one of his own advanced students who have been given permission to transmit the teachings. You have access to the interpretation of their teachings, accompanied by liberal amounts of speculation and personal bias, in the form of books written by men who studied under Chang via a translator for a few years and never advanced very far (relatively speaking) within the system. Even in a relatively simple setting, with a relatively simple subject, such as the transmission of a basic Tai Chi form, I've found that the ability for a practice or teaching to be altered, re-interpreted or misunderstood jumps enormously with each step or barrier between yourself and the original teacher. As an example, my first Tai Chi instructor would demonstrate a form one way, which I'd learn, only to have it "corrected" by one of his senior students when training under them, and then be offered advice which contradicted both when training with another fellow student. If this kind of thing can happen with a simple Tai Chi form, when everyone involved is transmitting the practice directly, how much easier is it for misunderstandings or reinterpretations to slip in when we're talking about books written by students from notes taken during conversations which were being held through a translator? Students (and translators) with their own worldviews and agendas which don't necessarily match up with the original teacher? And much more complicated subject matters - meditation methods and metaphysical cosmologies. Kinda my point - just because deep meditation with the perineum exposed to the ground is the method by which enough of what Mo Pai refers to as Yin Chi is cultivated to carry out their specific techniques, doesn't mean that it's the only way of accessing Yin energy in some form, or that the Yin energy attained in this manner is the only form of Yin energy, or that any technique which doesn't involve the Yin via perineum method cannot produce results. I don't doubt that Kosta is an intelligent man, and I don't think he intentionally misled people with his books. But being an engineer, spending a few years practicing the method taught by John Chang and conversing with him via translator and doing some reading on Daoism on the side doesn't make him or his books some kind of definitive authority on all things regarding meditation, internal arts or vital energy. And intelligent people are just as prone to bias, to misinterpretation, to misunderstanding, and so on, as anyone My point is that Kosta's books are not, and were not written as, the definitive bible on all things regarding energetic arts. They were written as an account of Kosta's time with Chang, the things he experienced, the changes in worldview he underwent and the ideas he was exposed to, a collection of the theories he developed from combining these ideas with his own reading into the subject and his scientific background, with the agenda of exposing a wider audience to the greater potential of humanity and hopefully leading to a merging of Eastern yogic practices and Western science and a return to a more natural way of life, in sync with the environment. They should be treated as such, not touted as gospel. And I could argue this sounds a lot like projection - someone wants something desperately themselves, so they assume that everyone else wants it as badly as they do I find the whole Mo Pai thing interesting because I love learning about different spiritual systems and the way they work, and I enjoy books about people's experiences with spiritual training (it also serves as something of a cautionary tale - Kosta's casting of himself in the role of Prometheus was almost prescient, except Prometheus actually succeeded before being chained to the rock). Furthermore, I dislike the dogmatism which Mo Pai fans constantly press, here and on other forums about spirituality (I find it especially troubling that they have no problem with using the books as hard evidence in one paragraph, then directly contradicting them in the next), and I think it's incredibly irresponsible to encourage people to attempt to train in the method (which is by all descriptions a dangerous one, as these things go) using online guides put together from the books and leaked emails and word of mouth, with no guidance from a teacher, so I argue against that when I can muster the energy to step into the quagmires these debates inevitably turn into. Likewise.

Just going to point out that this is all contextual. Chang is speaking specifically in terms of training within his specific system - he's instructing students (through a translator? and then of course the quotes are being conveyed several years after the fact), not giving a general lecture on the nature of Chi. Just because Mo Pai requires the practitioner to draw what they refer to as Yin Chi through the perineum while in contact with the earth doesn't mean that it can't be brought into the body in other ways - just that that method is the one which was passed down within the Mo Pai lineage for their specific set of practices. In more practical terms, if the perineum was the only way in which Yin Chi could enter the body, then the entirety of humanity barring a few members of a few very specific lineages would be completely deprived of Yin. While in the books Chang takes the time to point out that being insulated from the Earth by synthetic materials in the shoes/floor is unhealthy, he doesn't say that you specifically need to have the huiyin in contact with the earth to maintain your Yin, only that you need to avoid being insulated from the Earth - implying pretty strongly that at least some level of Yin comes through at other points. Generally speaking, I think all this third hand "something said by a master, then translated by a student to another student, then written down from that student's notes years later" stuff is a pretty silly thing to become so dogmatic about. These books aren't the direct and approved teachings of John Chang, Mo Pai Master, they're accounts written by his students (again, years after the fact, and with none of them speaking to him in his native language), combining details from notes and memory (at least some of which conflict between books) with (at least in the case of Danaos, I haven't read McMillan's book) a whole boatload of personal views, theorizing and outright speculation (some of which is depicted as fact to varying degrees). Are they interesting to read as a broad strokes overview of the time someone spent training under a master and the way their worldview changed in that time? Absolutely. But treating them as gospel is absurd.

But that's the point, she has no power, sovereign or otherwise, beyond what she wields as a public figure (in the sense of the ability to alter public opinion and so on, much as an actor or singer might do), and even that she rarely uses in any real fashion (and I suspect if she attempted to, she would be a lot less tolerated than she is now). She's a figurehead in the literal sense of the word - kept in place because she serves as a symbol of national identity and as a tourist attraction. Even within the "monarchist" position you outline, in which social hierarchies are accepted as a right and natural part of human nature, the Queen doesn't sit at the top of that hierarchy. Even the PM doesn't. That position belongs to the conglomerate of super-rich businessmen who's money pulls the strings on the top political level.

Man, you Brits are really weird about class. The obvious answer to me seems to be that he shouldn't kiss her hand if he doesn't want to, and that nothing should happen as a result because the Queen is a symbolic figurehead and tourist attraction with no real meaningful place in 21st century politics.

Last I heard, Chang is in retreat after developing health problems and no longer interacts with the public. Sorry, but I imagine any attempt to find him would be a waste of time and money - you'll have to find someone else to discuss philosophy with.