Aeran

It's obvious by now that 'the establishment' won't accept any evidence that they can possibly get away with denying on even the flimsiest of grounds, so what is needed is something visible, overt, immediate, controllable and repeatable (and someone who can do that and is willing to act as a lab rat for a decade or two while they basically convince the scientific community one University at a time). Remember that in doing so, you're effectively destroying the worldview, life's work and legacy of the very people you're trying to convince, so it's going to take quite a bit of force to really shove it down their throat, metaphorically speaking.

Hmmm. There are a few parks here I could try, especially since it's cold enough atm that we don't have many mosquitos around (fringe benefits of climate change?). The problem is that most of the parks around here are pretty busy, and I find it hard to relax when there are people wandering past. I guess it's worth looking around though. There is actually a patch of nice bush around 5 minutes from my house, only problem is that most of it is either steep and hilly or occupied by a jogging track. I might go for a wander though and see if I can find a nice remote clearing or somesuch. Would be really nice to get out of the house and practice among the trees, under the sky, with the ground beneath my feet.

Perhaps, perhaps not - the only way to find out is to try and solve them.

I disagree. The universe is limitless, and therefore the number of questions is limitless. Refusing to answer the questions we have to try and preserve the sense of mystery just means that we'll end up gridlocked and that that sense of mystery will grow stale. It's answering the mysteries we have that allows us to move onto the next set of mysteries.

I've been thinking about this lately. I live (and meditate) in a room which is lifted slightly off the ground and rarely walk around bare foot in the Garden (thanks to our 3 dogs), and I've been wondering what kind of effect it might be having on me, energetically speaking. Meditating outside is impossible, not only because of aforementioned dog mess, but the ton of noisy parrots and the mosquitos we get around here mean it just isn't feasible.

Hah yeah I was 11 or 12 at the time, going through my sisters bookshelf and finding a bunch of stuff on Wicca is what opened me up to the idea that magic & spirituality isn't just fantasy, although it took another 10 years or so for the idea to sink in properly.

I wouldn't say trying to change it, it's just the intellectual incongruity behind it which gets under my skin I can't help myself from trying to point that out. I have a bit of a sick compulsion when it comes to arguing online, I admit it. Maybe I should take up your 15 minute challenge - I'll either stop wasting time on futile internet debates, or reach adepthood by 30. Seems like a win/win. Also one of the first books I read about spirituality was a Silver Ravenwolf book... don't judge me

This is why I started coming here, because I know very little about Taoism and wanted to learn more. Sadly it's mostly turned into trying to convince MPG that his worldview re: spiritual systems is completely baseless. The problem is that when you first find a forum, you see all these amazing, in depth discussions and think 'man, I have to get in on this, there's so much to learn.' Then you register and start posting, and you realize that those amazing discussions consist of a tiny percentage the conversation that actually goes on, and that it just happens to float to the top through the rest of the nonsense over the course of the years.

People have been saying that since the 19th century I was reading a book from the 1920's about bioenergy the other day, talking about how scientific acceptance is 'just around the corner!' Honestly I think that short of some John Chang type volunteering to be a lab rat, nothing is going to bring about acceptance of the spiritual nature of reality except for the growth and maturation of humanity as a civilization. There's already a ton of objective, scientific evidence out there, and this stuff is easier than ever to personally experience thanks to the internet, if people don't believe in it, either they don't want to believe in it or they're incapable of shaking off the dogma of materialist reductionism long enough to consider it properly. Hell, I used to be one of those people, so I know what it's like, and for someone in that situation, the only way to change it is to forcefully shove it in their face until they can't deny it any longer - which might prove problematic with the entirety of the human species.

Experience the fullness of reality and reach my complete potential as an individual.

That gives me a 70's flashback and I wasn't even alive in the 70's

Nah, I've got the brand new super secret ultra mo pai evidence videos right here:

I don't know what kind of omniscience you've gained from practicing Mo Pai, but personally I'm not capable of evaluating the past and present of someones mood, physical/mental/energetic health, martial ability, etc through looking at them or reading their internet posts. If you cared about not annoying people you'd stop shoving your 'spiritual roleplay' rants into every other major discussion that takes place.

How do you know what these people are gaining from his practice? Have you surveyed them all? Had them take part in a long term trial? Just because they aren't gaining super powers doesn't mean they aren't becoming happier, healthier, better martial artists, etc. And if that's all they want from the system then good for them. It isn't a binary issue, with systems like Mo Pai on one end and everything else being 'role play' - even Danaos in his books was able to acknowledge the benefits of various other systems and practices, so why can't you? You seem to struggle to grasp the fundamental concept that not everyone has the same outlook and desires as you do, and that reality isn't defined by your understanding of it. It's a shame really, most people, when they encounter this stuff and realize that they were wrong about it, use that experience to stop and wonder where else their ingrained beliefs might in fact fall wildly short of the reality - but for you it just seems to have ingrained those beliefs even further. The only one wasting your time is you, nobody is forcing you to reply at gunpoint. I, on the other hand, am quite happy to keep going until you realize that your sweeping dismissal of everything that isn't Mo Pai is entirely baseless. Yes you can, just stop barging into other threads to accuse the people there of roleplay, stick to your 'challenge' thread when you want to rant about how Mo Pai is the one true bioenergetic system.

And you're basing this on what exactly? Unless you can provide an indepth explanation for exactly how such abilities work on a mechanical level which rules out their existence except as a product of training, then you're making some pretty huge assumptions. That said, I do tend to be suspicious of people claiming they were 'born with' certain abilities, as it often comes off as an excuse to feel special without having to do any hard work, but I've also seen some pretty good evidence that some people do have an innate capacity for certain things - although it's generally much, much weaker than when it's achieved as a result of training.

You might want to condense that evidence down into a more timely format if you want people to discuss it...

But he could claim that the paper bag isn't in fact the paper bag, but that if you can prove him wrong by finding a paper bag the size of a skyscraper he'll give you $1 million

Yeah generally speaking, I'm ok with things the way they are right now (although, if I'm honest, I do feel a tiny bit resentment at realizing that the worldview I had shoved down my throat as the only option was, in fact, wildly false ), and I'm certainly not looking forward to the headache that will result from stuff like the legal system trying to update to take spirituality/magic into account (the first lawsuit lodged because someone stubs their toe and thinks their ex cursed them will be interesting). BUT I also wonder if it might be a major step towards improving our behavior as a society - maybe people would worry more about the environment if they realized how interconnected they actually are with it? Of course even just physically, we're pretty dependent on it, and that hasn't made a huge difference, so maybe not.

Ahh, one of those. Zzzz, they were boring even when I agreed with them. It does kind of confuse me though - I have no doubt about the existence of the (for lack of a better word) paranormal/spiritual, but what I don't understand, given how easy it was to establish it's existence once I was prodded in the right direction and got over the dogma of my reductionist/materialist education, is how it has yet to be verified and accepted by society at large. Obviously there are a lot of factors at work, ingrained dogma, careers invested in certain paradigms, etc etc. and I get the feeling that a lot of the disbelief is circular ("I don't believe because if it was true, everyone would already believe in it, therefore I won't bother trying to establish it's existence and come to believe it"), but it still blows my mind that something so huge is just around the corner of our perception and so many people miss it . It's just hard to understand how so many people could be so dense for so long. I mean this stuff has been verified to the basic scientific standard over and over, but the goalposts constantly shift - how much further can they keep shifting. Will we have to wait till a John Chang type steps up and is willing to act as a lab rat? Would that even be enough?

Cliff notes? Cbf with a 50 minute video.

I'm still not following what point it is you think you're making. I know there's evidence (to a certain degree, but that's another debate) for Mo Pai and Tummo, and I don't have any doubts about the validity of either system. But that says nothing at all about the validity of the other systems out there. If I have two boxes, and I open one to find a big pile of money inside, that's great, but it says nothing about the contents of the other box. The only way to find out whether it also contains money or not is to open it and look. Maybe not, but for some people it's a tool for achieving those things. And as long as it actually does help them achieve it, then that's fine. Then you should stick to that thread when you want to claim that everyone other than you is "roleplaying."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZaCyxv2LcM Sets the perfect mood for reading about alchemy

What does that have to do with what I said?

The problem is that a ) your criteria for whether a system does or doesn't 'do anything' is how many youtube videos you've seen of people setting newspapers on fire, and b ) that you fail to grasp that there can be plenty of systems which might not offer immortality or vast power, but can still yield improved strength/health/energy/mood etc etc. and as such are entirely valid for people who only want those things. You chose to start this conversation in this thread, so I'm going to continue it here until you choose to end it or a mod comes along and moves the whole thing. You're not getting off that easily