Aeran

Then why do you keep replying? Or is it a koan - If a conversation consists of nothing but someone saying that the conversation is over, is it a conversation? Maybe contemplating this koan will turn my aura yellow so I can merge yin & yang...

We could agree to disagree about the color of the sky as well, but it's still not red ... I wonder how many times you've typed out the phrase "goodbye and best wishes" in this thread?

Neither Kosta nor Jim devoted "all day every day," and they made progress. In fact it's their progress which you guys base all of your claims to credibility on. Kosta completed all of the training your group has available in 8 years, while maintaining a relationship with his girlfriend, travelling, socializing, writing, teaching and possibly working as an engineer (I'm not sure on the last one, he may have retired by that stage). As a fun little side project, I decided to put together a diagram to explain why the youtube videos of John Chang do not constitute scientific evidence:

Find a job working 20 - 30 hours a week, working somewhere you can afford a living space with a garden on that salary, and you can easily practice 4 - 6 hours a day with time left over. Obviously this would entail some effort and sacrifices to set up, but if what you have is both as amazing and important as you claim, wouldn't it be worth it? Unless, of course, you're all talk, you simply want to have your cake (or dare I say... Pie?) and eat it too.

Wait, he doesn't practice at all? I thought he at least did long sessions on the weekends. If they truly believed in their training method and the results it offers with the fervor they claim, then shouldn't they be re-organizing their life to prioritize it above everything else?

I'm also fairly certain that none of the actual Mo Pai students in Kosta's books trained in anything remotely resembling the method described by the MorePie crew. JC practiced daily, Kosta practiced daily (sometimes for short periods), and someone (I think it was Jim) was mentioned as practicing daily for 15 years at an hour per day. These were actual Mo Pai students who attained actual results in their training. I just re-read the section of Kosta's second book where he gives instructions on basic meditation, and he repeatedly emphasizes daily practice. I also want to raise this a third time, because I think it's important - Kosta states that standing practice is an essential adjunct to seated practice, and that without it, it is impossible to advance in the seated practice. If anyone reading this is attempting any version of what they believe to be the Mo Pai method of neigong, please keep this in mind. The whole attitude to training outlined by Coffee is absurd - even if longer sessions are qualitatively better (which I think is almost universally true, but arguable in this specific case, when they aren't being practiced on a foundation of steady daily training), it makes absolutely no sense to not also integrate a daily session into the training regimen to develop the skill of meditation, to maintain momentum and to get as much meditation done as possible. What he's describing is like trying to become a body builder by training for 10 hours non-stop each weekend then lying around on the couch eating pizza for the other 5 days a week. It's insane. I'm going to be blunt - all of this sounds like little more than cognitive dissonance. What do you do if you want to believe that you have access to a revolutionary and powerful system of spiritual training, but don't want to make the sacrifices required to dedicate yourself to actually practicing it fully? You cook up some half-baked reasoning which states that it's actually not better to build up a disciplined daily practice (which would, after all, take away from valuable time which could be spent shitposting online) despite all evidence and advice to the contrary, and voila! You get to be the one practicing the ONE TRUE SYSTEM... without actually having to practice! You guys claim to simply follow from what Kosta & Jim passed down, but unless I'm very much mistaken, both of them made the advances they made while maintaining their careers and relationships. And Chang was working as a driver into his thirties, with a wife and children, while practicing on the side! It would be funny if it wasn't so sad :/

At least MPG had a sense of humor :/

Tragic I honestly think a serious look needs to be taken at the whole "10 day silent vipassana retreat" industry. I've heard multiple accounts, both in person, online and in the media, of people who've had similar breakdowns on or after these retreats. There needs to be a serious discussion about the risks of putting people in such intensive situations, especially people who lack serious pre-existing meditation experience or who are dealing with some kind of psychological instability, as well as the culture that seems to be fostered at these retreats and by those who attend them. Fortunately there seems to finally be some work being done on the potential negative side effects of meditation practice, so hopefully that will extend to these retreats in the near future, since they seem to be a particularly egregious example of a situation which sets off these problems in a dramatic and dangerous manner.

I think this thread deserves an award for managing to say so little with so many words.

Maybe this is a rite of passage or a trial for membership into their group? Before they grant someone access to the inner sanctum of the cult of MorePie, the applicant has to come to daobums and shitpost daily until they can force the mods to ban them, demonstrating their dedication to the cause by dragging out the conversation as long as possible while absolutely refusing to engage in anything resembling rational dialogue, and showing that they've fully absorbed the doctrine of More Pie by repeatedly spouting canned responses to basic questions without allowing a single original thought or scrap of deviance from the dogma to enter their mind.

Firstly, we need to address that you've changed your tune here, twice. Originally you were willing to answer (you responded to my initial question about the aura issue), then when I responded to that with my own rebuttal and accompanied it with my earlier questions, you said you weren't willing to answer because the only outcome to doing so would be to make your group look bad, and only then when I pointed out what a terrible reason that is to not answer a question did you decide "it wasn't worth your time" - even though in all the time you've spent saying it isn't worth your time (let alone all the other posts you've made), you could have simply answered my questions. So whatever you say, it certainly doesn't seem like the issue is one of time well spent. It is, it seems to me, exactly what you first said in response to my rebuttal and the reposting of the deleted questions - that you don't want to answer because the answers will make you and your group look bad in some way. The rest is just post hoc justification. You couldn't bring yourself to stop responding, so now you're trying to justify yourself with this nonsense about NDA's, which, it seems to me, is just an attempt to bury some kind of cognitive dissonance. Anyway, I have to get going (Roleplay time!), so I am going to head off. Goodbye. Farewell. Adieu. Auf Wiedersehen. Au Revoir. slán. Proshchay. Dovizhdane. Ahoj. Прощай. May the Gods always stand between you and harm in all the empty places you must walk

That's simply part and parcel with free intellectual discourse. It comes with the whole "rationality and logic" thing, you can't have the latter without the former. And there are alternatives to the chaotic free-for-all you described - we could easily have undertaken a structured debate the first time I posted my questions in the other thread, where you had full control over the flow of the discussion. Instead, you used that control to shut it down entirely. Or you could have replied in a PM and undertaken a two-way conversation in that context. If it's not worth it to you, then why did you create an account, wait a year for someone to start a discussion on the Mo Pai, then leap in and post 77 times over 4 days in the exact manner you described? You knew exactly what you were signing up for when you came here and started trotting out the same old doctrines your group always puts forward - you can see how it would look like a cop out to then suddenly bow out when a particular set of uncomfortable questions are raised, especially since you've continued the back and forth afterwards. You respond compulsively but refuse to answer challenging questions for fear of self incrimination - that must be an uncomfortable position to be in. As for being satisfied, I knew it was 50/50 at best that you'd reply at all, and that there was no chance that the following discussion would result in anything other than you repeating the same talking points MPG used to drop here ad nauseum - as I said, my questions are at least as much for anyone else who might wander across this discussion in the future as they are for you. And, of course, I've got time to kill before I go to practice RolePlayQuan with my RolePlay teacher

I talk and you talk and then I talk - that seems like a conversation to me. It is, of course, entirely your choice as to whether you answer my questions or not, but refusing to do so (especially after being willing to answer my initial question when you thought you could shut it down with a simple book quote) reflects extremely poorly on your claims to logic and rationality. Especially when you admit that the reason for refusing to take part in debate is because you wish to avoid answers that reflect poorly on your arguments and your group.

I posed genuine questions in a respectful format, entirely rational in their content and backed up by the sources which you yourself accept as valid. I sincerely doubt the administration here would have a problem with you answering those questions in a similar manner - the onus for refusal is on you alone.

Rationality and free thought which rejects dialogue the moment it challenges your stance?

The funny thing is, I suspect that it isn't. If you're anything like the rest of your group, I suspect that if I keep replying you'll do the exact same. Let's see how that plays out. It's a shame that you crumple the moment someone poses a half-reasoned rebuttal to your group's talking points. What happened to all the talk about reason and logic and what not? At least now I know you're not MPG under another name - he stuck it out till the bitter end.

Full speed ahead! But seriously, I think it's worth making at least a thorough initial attempt to seriously question some of the fundamental dogmas of MPG and his weird little e-cult whenever they pop up, not because it's core members are likely to change their mind, but so that there are valid, well articulated alternative opinions on the subject which point out the flaws in their thinking for when other people browsing the internet looking for information on the subject come across these discussions.

I note that you were happy to answer when you thought you could simply throw a quote at me :/ To be honest, that seems like a cop out. You're going to insist that every other system is "role play" while yours is legitimate, and that everyone else's experiences are imaginary while yours are real, and yet when challenged to back that up you simply refuse? Bad enough that you won't debate in good faith, but it's an especially poor show from someone who claims to base their views on logic and rationality. Something else to ponder: if the only outcome of answering a question is that the information contained in that answe will provide fuel to opposing opinions, perhaps you should go back over that information and re-consider your opinions? I would personally be very concerned if I was in the position of attempting to defend a group and their opinions and behavior and yet unable to provide a response to set of simple, rational questions for fear that those answers would incriminate and could be used to criticize. Do you know this from Kosta himself, or is it merely an assumption? What are you basing this evaluation on? Why would you treat Kosta's books like scripture, but reject his later statements? Again, what are you basing this on?

The cool thing about books is that anyone can quote them: - Magus of Java - Nei Kung: Secret Teachings of the Warrior Sages - Kosta Danaos, Daobums interview And that is, of course, putting aside the fact that nobody within your group has instructions that go past the second or third level anyway. I'm going to repeat the questions you removed from the other thread because I'm genuinely curious as to your response, and I think they're issues which are well worth raising in the context of this discussions: 1 - Is there anyone who has a serious claim to have completed level 1 who has not trained under John Chang or one of his direct students, using only the instructions given by your group? 2 - If so, how would this claim be validated? What proof do you offer that it is possible to achieve even level 1 without the guidance of a teacher from within the official lineage? 3 - More generally, what proof do you offer that the instructions you give on your website are valid? There are many sources claiming to offer instruction in the Mo Pai method - why should someone believe that your group is the sole legitimate one, as you claim? 4 - In his second book, Danaos emphasizes that within the Mo Pai system, seated practice must be accompanied by standing practice to circulate the Qi, otherwise the Qi will "harden" in the Lower Dantien and the student will be stuck at level 1, unable to progress. If this is such an important issue, why does your group encourage people to use your instructions to practice the seated training, but make no mention of this on your website (that I can see - if it's there, then by all means correct me)? 5 - More generally, if a problem emerged in the training of someone using the methods espoused by your group, how would they diagnose and address that problem so as to not cause themselves serious harm, without the guidance of an experienced master? This strikes me as especially important, since Kosta said in his DB interview: And an addition one: 6) In his DB interview, Kosta said: Why not follow this advice if you take Kosta's word as seriously as you seem to? It seems like a far more logical route than hoping that you have the proper instructions and hoping that you can interpret and implement them properly and then hoping that after a decade or two of self training you can find a teacher (of which you seem to believe there are no more than 10, globally) who will tell you that you have the "1/1000 yellow aura" and that they can take you to the next level?

Actually I'm fairly certain it does. I'll dig up a copy of the second book when I get home later today and find the quote.

Didn't Kosta's book say that to become like Chang required a special type of aura, and that only one in a thousand people were born with that aura?

Am I misunderstanding or is he skipping the full breath between each % breath in the instructions? ie. instead of 100% in, 50% out, 50% in, 100% out - 100% in, 100% out - 100% in, 40% out, etc etc. He's saying 100% in, 50% out, 50% in, 100% out - 100% in, 40% out, 40% in, etc etc Also interesting that it otherwise seems to have the same breath sequence as MHPearl - I suppose given the number of meditations in the Doo Family tradition it would make sense that they would start doubling up eventually. Interesting video though - thanks for posting it.

Obviously only Sifu Terry can answer for sure, but I don't think I've seen any specific FP meditation mentioned as being especially effective at expelling pathogenic Qi before. Off the top of my head, it seems like the standing & moving meditations like Bending the Bows and Wind Above the Clouds would maybe be a good choice, since they seem to induce the most whole body energy circulation. Just a thought, but if you are practicing at work, it could be a good idea to find a nearby Garden/Park for performing the meditations, since they seem to create an enhanced sensitivity to environmental influences (energetic and otherwise), and the last thing you'd want is to open yourself up to increased levels of the kind of energy which most hospitals are filled with.

I might be way off base and possibly thinking of some other system, but isn't there a connection between blood and the lungs in TCM?