Sebastian

Yeah... it's tough. One famous Buddhist Master, Reggie Ray, still has trauma because his caretakers left him crying through the night when he was an infant. They never went for him because their perspective was that it would make him stronger or something like that. So he was left alone crying in the dark, through the night, for his entire infant-hood. He has countless hours of meditation under his belt and still struggles with it. One time he was yelling stuff in meditation to release it, in a very cathartic manner, like 60 or 70 years after the fact. I'm not talking about delusion though. You can still be honest in how you feel. I'm just saying see yourself more through the eyes of the Divine, and not through the eyes of judgment. This is not your fault. Not judging yourself doesn't mean you'll stop making progress. Yeah when I used the word 'content', that was more on the psychological level you are right. Anyways, sorry I couldn't be of more help.

Yeah.... you're already normal. When you think you're not, you loose your balance, and end up caught in the superior/inferior thing. Your childhood is your personal content. But rest assured that everyone else follows the same process, they just have different content. And everyone is convinced that their own content or story is different/worst than others. They defend it by saying... yes, but you have no idea how much or how bad... etc. I know..I really know.... it sucks, and there are so many layers of suffering in this world. I feel so sorry for all this, I don't even know what to make of it. But I'm suggesting to look at the process, and not the content. When you enter the "there is something wrong and not enough" conversation, which could be about any content, not just yours, then you loose your balance energetically. Spiritually, you lose your place at the center of the universe. You become a victim and need to prove your self-worth to others or to create your own sense of normal again. But in the eyes of God, you are not a victim, there is nothing wrong with you. The energy that animates you, does not judge you. Society judges you, and there is no love in judgment. I'll leave it with the words I underlined, which happen to be the title of a wonderful book by Cheri Huber, one of my dear teachers at the beginning of my path... which I highly recommend to you. Amazon book. This lady is the real deal, not in terms of her Qigong power, she has none of that, but her good heart and piercing wisdom. She started her path by committing suicide, and surviving it. She gleaned a lot of helpful observations along the way. This book is outstanding by the way, but it's not Taoist or anything like that, it's Zen. It's what started me on the path. I've met her many times and she gave me some wonderful hugs. She lives in California.

You're fine... What if you didn't need fixing ? Think about it .... All this fixing makes you think you aren't fine. All this focus on complex movements and theories.... You don't need any of that, you're already fine. Even if your childhood is unique compared to many others it doesn't mean you aren't fine and loved the same way by the universe. God created you and knows your value. You don't need to prove yourself to God or anybody else. Most people have traumas and bad pasts, myself included, but you also have the opportunity to embrace the real you, and choose to live your life with the part that doesn't need fixing, your heart, at every step of the way.

How about you Freeform... Do you see any value in this set, either in general, or related to the 8 extra-meridians ?

Oh and let me know if you see subtle ways to improve these 4 movements, without changing the form, based on your experience, VonKrankenhaus. Although I understand you said that your perspective on 8 meridians required transmissions from a Master. Even though..... let me know if you see anything. For example, do you think it is possible to improve upon move 1 to open the MCO ? I asked Starjumper personally, and although he has access to the 10,000 techniques of his lineage, he said he didn't think there was anything better than that move to open these channels through physical movement. Although he would do that one backwards first, and then normal, to calm to down the Qi. But you might have a different opinion. I also haven't found better, that's why I keep coming back to it, but if you wanted to show and tell for the physical MCO that would be great too. Or find improvements for movement 2 which you find weak.

Thanks for your feedback VonKrankenhaus and also all the other wonderful people who contributed in this thread. Especially star-jumper who is giving me more info about the shaking move via PM. I watched at 55 seconds in your video, this does look really advanced, and fast too. Thanks for explaining the principles, wow that is a quick succession of moves in the that video. We also have the same understanding of the role of the Thrusting vessel. My 4 moves is like a really bare bones version in comparison of what you showed in the video. I also experience some psychic effects from this set, which probably has to do with the repeated thumping of heels which sends a vibration straight to the brain, and also the opening of the thrusting channel. I see auras with my eyes open at around two thirds through. I've never experienced this with any other set. It is mild and gentle, good for old people, yup. But I viewed the thumping as a potent technique, not "wimpy" to stimulate the brain and thrusting. In fact the Masters caution about doing this one too much. The top of the spine gets burning hot. I don't think burping would achieve the same spinal effect, but I can see burping or opening the mouth wide driving Qi upwards for sure. Thanks for your feedback, and got to run, got a guitar session coming up in 10 min.

I'm sorry this happened to you buddy. Your dedication and perseverance really shines through your posts, so keep on doing what you are doing, and I'm sure you'll overcome these final blockages. Maybe look into developing your meditation and spirituality, which will make Qigong affect deeper energetic layers. Because moving Qigong really just moves blockages around, it's true. It will change the intensity of the blockage of course, but the blockage will just move at a different speed and in a different direction. It will still be there, or at least transform into something else later, especially if your emotions aren't balanced. When you enter the absolute void, no blockages can exist there by definition, in a vacuum. The blockages just evaporate. But stillness like this is not easy to access. You might already get very close with your ZZ and inner dissolving, just keep going deeper and deeper in the stillness. There is no sense of boredom in that void, at least when you get past boredom, you should be there. You can also try to call on a higher energy before doing your Qigong too - for example connect to the Sun, to Light, or a Master you like and make a prayer for the energy to affect the part you are wanting to heal. I also have a mild right/left energetic imbalance, my Masters told me, and they also told me that just speaking about it somehow erased that blockage. Because every cry is a prayer, every wish is a prayer, and something is always listening to you. It can be easy as saying to a higher energy that you want to balance your right and left sides of the body and hold your hands in the prayer position in front of the heart. And then releasing everything to that Light. Sometimes bigger blockages need Divine intervention, being a performer in charge of everything is not enough in these cases. I know it sounds like new age stuff, but it's really just the power of intent and opening up to a bigger energetic field. Qi follows intent, especially if you state your intent in front of the eyes of God. For example in marriage, people don't see how it affects two people energetically to make vows in front of God. You become energetically linked. Hope it helps, and take good care.

Also, what's interesting about this set is that each movement further opens the MCO, while opening the other extras. For example: Movement 2: The thump sends a vibration up the spine and opens the back. The raising and dropping of the arms makes Qi go up and down, both in the central channel, and also the ren and du. So it's like you keep knocking on the door of the Du Meridian. Thump, and then the Qi comes up and knocks at the door again... Thump and then knock... Practically you are breaking through C7, the back of the skull, and the shoulder's nest. Movement 3: When you draw a 360 degree circle with you arm and watch the middle finger the whole time, your Qi is mirroring the movement and doing circles. At mid-point you'll notice you are looking at the sky, Qi is at bahui, and when you're looking down at the feet, you connect the small universe to the leg channels. Also you'll notice that the person is pressing the Du meridian control point for the hand that is against the hip. Movement 4: You are connecting Ming-men to Dantian with the palms while the side to side movement of the legs is stimulating the perineum. These three points are in what some people call the 'small-small-universe' flow. Anyways, this is what I feel energetically when I do this, at least to me. But if you want to experience the energetics fully, you need these mental cues (which I've mentioned in bits and pieces before) Movement 1: When you come down, press down on the Dantian with the hands, so you feel pressure and the hands become numb. Movement 2: When you flap wings down (and also up) feel resistance from the air/qi in the environment, it feels like you are always pushing against something. Imagine your central channel to be like a trunk of a tree, very stable, and the arms are like small branches. The symmetry combined with the motion the arms makes you highly aware of the central pole. Movement 3: Place all the weight on the leg that is bent. The other should be weightless and delicately touching the earth on its heel, and extended. Then trace a large circle and watch the middle finger the entire time, until the middle finger touches the big toe of the other leg. Movement 4: When you turn right, turn from the waist, and shift your weight to the left leg as the hands circulate from Dantian to Mingmen. Then do reverse. When you turn left, shift body weight on right leg. If you want to practice this, I recommend you learn from the Master directly. I can only do show and tell here. I do this so you can try and get a feel for how the system works the 8 meridians, since this was the aim of this thread. Otherwise I don't think this is a dangerous set at all, but proceed with caution as with everything else.

Yes, sorry. When you click each will go to the right time mark, but the splash image is always the same it looks like. Youtube does this. Movement 1(MCO) Movement 2 part 1 (Bird flaps wings - Chong Mai) Movement 2 part 2 (Raise heels and thump - Chong Mai) Movement 2 part 3 (rapid hand fluttering - Chong Mai) Movement 3 (baseball pitch - yin wei, yang wei, and yin heel, yang heel merdians) Movement 5 (belt channel) Hope this helps.

Haaaaa... can't help myself. OK here's two more principles for that form. Of course all this theory stuff is useless, just do the form and it happens for you. . Movement 1: (Additional principles) * Qi follows vision. If you try to imitate the Master on the video, you probably won't pay attention to your vision, but if you do, you'll notice that you automatically look up when the arms are above the head. This makes Qi rise to Bahui. And when the hands come down, you'll also notice you look at them. So Qi follows the eyes. This 8 meridian set uses vision a lot like this, especially movement 3 where the instruction is to look at your middle finger the whole time, for the baseball pitch. * Subtle rocking on heels and toes causes an energetic response too. When you reach towards the back there's naturally a small impulse on the heel as you fight against gravity, and when you gather back down there is more pressure on the toes. This also has an effect on the flow of Qi, up and down. Anyways, these are really minor additions and not worth mentioning.. But I figured why not.... And feel free to add more principles you see or correct me in my understanding, which mostly comes from practicing this form. I'm no expert, maybe not even a beginner. Just a Dao Bum who perseveres in these arts for a long time.

Sure.... I can try. But there's a lot going on energetically for each move. So let me explain this 'retirement house Qigong' to you, which gets a bad rap at face value At least movement 1, I'll list a few of them that I can think off right now. (Just back from the gym) Movement 1 - MCO * Uses principle of physical rotation and associated energetic response. Since Qi mirrors physical movement, it also starts to rotate. In this case, you create an arc by bowing the spine slightly backwards and then forwards. And the Qi mirrors this rotation. This feels a bit like an antenna (your spine) and you're holding the tip and going backwards and forwards a tad. It's opening up the top of the back and the top of the chest alternatively, one part is either compressed or expanded. It's push-pull. The Qi goes down or up.... MCO. * Uses principle of accumulation and compression of Qi into Dantian. When you come back down with the palms and you start pressing down on the Dantian bubble or field, you are compressing Qi there. You are literally holding the Dantian in your arms, and you will feel it when the arms are quite high, but I guess it depends how much Qi people have. The volume starts out large, but as you get closer to the physical Dantian, the auric volume gets smaller. Your palms become very numb. This feels like holding and pressing on a huge open balloon to deflate it in your belly, and through your back, if that speaks to you. * Uses principle of vertical movement and associated energetic response (similar to 1). For example when you raise your arms, Qi is subtly going down. There is always an energetic polarity which creates a response that is opposite to whatever physical movement you are doing. So when we are coming back down and pressing on the Dantian, we are moving the arms down, that's right, but Qi is subtly going up the spine at the same time. This is counter-intuitive, but when you do this movement, you will feel it ascending through the neck. This enhances the effect greatly. * Note that this form also doesn't "pack Qi" and hurt you in any way, because you are bending progressively forward, so the Qi keeps ascending up the spine. The Dantian is overflowing to the back. It's not like standing stiff and keep pumping Qi into a narrow point. OK... Now does this really open the back and front channel ? Can any "physical" movement really do that ? You tell me... But does this movement affect or influence the natural movement of Qi in the back and front channel ???? Humm, I'd say yes... But I'll also say you need Dantian development to really play with the front and back channel. If you do this movement and truly feel the effect, then you'll be wondering about the rest, and how they effect the other 8 meridians. It's quite awesome.... at least to me, even though it's so boring looking.

Cool, thanks for your feedback vonkrankenhaus. I guess for me what was unique about the set is the focus on the 8 meridians and how the set makes me feel energetically in these areas. It's a set I can somehow never tire of, and keeps calling me back. But yes from the outside it looks very unglamorous and plain. The mental cues magnify the effects of each movement, for example coming down pressing on the Dantian sphere with the palms in the first exercise. There's others for the rest of the movements too. Thanks.

Well, it's very nice of you, Starjumper, to share with us here on DaoBums...

Oh just posted the right time mark here, sorry, of the vibration part.

Interesting... Did you see the strange wriggling of the hands in the exercise you are referring to, it's in the latter part.... like a kind of "energetic seizure", up and down. What do you make of that ? He says it's to expel sick Qi, so I guess it matches what you just said about getting rid of energy. But the raise on toes and thump on floor part is not for getting rid of energy imo. The vibration removes blockages in the spine, and combined with the arm movements it opens up the central channel, as well as further opening up the MCO from exercise one. The way I was taught that one is to have the energetic seizure from the shoulders (not the wrists) and the shoulders would rattle and shake the entire body. It's like a very quick succession of shoulder shrugs, as the arms come up and down. It's very strange and I also never saw this in any other set. It makes the top of the spine quite warm, and the arms start to float rapidly. Here is the strange arm movements, which I refer to as seizure like (it links to the right part in the video).

Thanks Starjumper, it's great to get feedback from someone as experienced as you You are right, flapping wings is for the central channel. The way it's laid out is like this movement 1: MCO movement 2 (flapping wings) : central channel movement 3 (baseball pitch in slow mo) : yin wei, yang wei, heel meridians movement 4 ( belt channel) So all 8 meridians are addressed, but there are only 4 actions, you are right.

You're welcome Toni. I learned it 7 years ago or so.

OK.... to the people who clicked 'like' .... I challenge you to do exercise 1 then... and let me know what you think. Your experience is valuable to me.

Bump.....

Okay but make sure you don't sacrifice enjoyment for discipline... The state of mind you do your practices with is significant, because they will amplify whatever 'input' you bring to them. If you do your practices in a calm and enjoying mood, then the result will be most agreeable to you. If you do them as a performer or in a rushed way, then the result will be more of that energy. Wanting "provable results" can come from the performer's perspective. It can lead to doing practices with expectation and attaching to outcomes. Your Qi will start to float. Spirit is the beginner's mind, it doesn't need tight control or validation along the way, it needs you to repeatedly offer your innocent mind and trust to whatever you are doing, ideally something greater than yourself. Can you reconcile the too ? Use your mind to find efficiencies, I think that's good. But when your practices are set-up, allow and don't perform. When the practice is done, forget the outcome. Forgive yourself for wanting to attach to outcomes. Don't judge yourself for not living up to your expectations. If you can practice like that, you will slowly harmonize your three entities of body, mind and spirit. Softening the mind is a good first step in this regard. This includes softening your perspectives to become more curious and allowing. It includes trading hard thoughts for gentle thoughts. Soft thoughts is like when you take a step back and see everything in your experience as a day-dream. Thoughts come in as a breeze and you don't apply strong force or direction to them. Remember that when you hold on to your practices too tightly, this tightness will reflect in your energetic body. Hope it helps

Does this Teacher live in Taiwan ? Something about your description about his garden, the statue, and his physical attributes really match with a Teacher I've encountered there. He was also classically trained, and it felt like he was "omniscient" as I think you've referred to. He lived in a mansion with pretty courtyard, with many statues. He was short and chubby in his 50s too. With long hair and a pony tail. But he was secretive and so I won't mention his name too.

Just expanding on Dawei's question to you.... When you view everything in your life or practices as an equation to solve, like a math problem, that's what we call "hard thoughts" in my tradition. When you take a step back, sigh, decide to just go with the flow, and remedy all your doubt, that's "opening the heart". Practically, this is an 18 inch journey from your head to the heart. Where are you right now ? Which direction do you want to go ? Personally, I wouldn't say that only classical Taoism is safe, or efficient. I'm also not sure if I would equate Damo with classical Taoism. It's common knowledge that he pieced his system from various, sometimes opposing lineages. He is also quite candid about it. We exchanged about this subject once or twice together, I remember he said something about the body energetics or technologies being the most important things to him, because they are the fruit of the traditions. And the outer coating wasn't that important as long as the body technologies worked or something like that. I'm certainly not criticizing him or his approach, he's a good guy and very friendly, just saying that what Welkin is doing isn't all that different. But even if you don't follow Damo's system, can you really say that the classical Taoist "boot camp" approach is the safest ? Who is to say what is really safest ? What matters most is your naturalness, in my opinion, during and especially outside practice. When you are natural, you are safe. How to be natural then ? When you run, just run. When you meditate, just meditate like you were taught. Don't try to do something extra to be natural. Don't over-think things and start changing the way you run or meditate to make things more natural, especially from advice you receive in a forum, that's how you deviate. Use your routines as way to maintain mind/body integration during the day. Don't use them to get "high" or make yourself feel safe. If you want to reflect on what you are doing, view your routine from the perspective of naturalness and common sense. You don't need to have your practices be 'vetted' by different lineages. Each lineage will have a different recommendation or emphasis, and you will start to question everything. With so much information, you won't know how to run anymore, or even walk. When you decide to be eclectic with your routine, why force yourself to follow the perspective of a traditional and strenuous path ? When you want to be spiritual, why force yourself to follow a perspective that places spirituality at the very last rung of the ladder ? Why not be integrated now, mind/body and spirit, and do everything from this unity of being. You don't need to make this the reward of standing 8 hours a day if you don't want too. Can you quiet your mind and come back to the heart, while remaining subtly aware of the body ? This is a gift that was given to humanity, not just to classical Taoists. The truth is that your sincerity, common sense and subjective effort can take you far, even without a Teacher. This sincerity will start to call out for a Teacher and he will find you at the right time. Nothing you will have done before will be in vain, if it was done naturally. It was the impetus that drew the Master to you. And from your spirit's perspective, it doesn't matter how much of practice A or practice B you do.... what matters is "how' you do your practices, what kind of a person you are, and how peaceful and loving you are. Spirit really doesn't care about taking sides about practice and lineages. It doesn't ripen based on repetition of movement, strength, or power. Truthfully you can have all these things and never develop your soul in a lifetime. Just wanted to provide another perspective.... and good luck on whatever path you decide to take.

This is a great post about residing along the central channel. Do you experience a sense of inner-self as well ? Like a light being within ? When I connect along the central channel, I find I have a sense of inner-self too.

I gotcha.... so it's like a suicide that doesn't completely kill you then. Sorry to hijack this thread by the way, please go on....

Strange coincidence.... with all this talk about being "unkillable", dying and coming back etc.... I googled "unkillable" and found this animal. Apparently they are literally unkillable and will see our human Sun die. I also couldn't help but see the resemblance to freeform's avatar. Am I onto something here ? Is meditation about being unkillable then ? (I revise my previous view that meditation was basically suicide). Is it about being like this bug ? The original article was here https://newatlas.com/tardigrades-survive-until-death-sun/50479/