Ormus

Hi Arkady, I see you again need more sources.But all answeres you look to find are writen by Wang miself and it is Chinese original that Louis just translated.Dawei posted the source and book if full of references. Ormus

Daoism started as Shamanism and this is known fact.Please read Ge Hong works to see how actual Xian looked like and what they do.Nei Dan is much later development and Quanzhen simply didnt recive full transmission and because of this they didnt produce any Xian in any time.Real Xian didnt depended only on Nei Dan.Please read books of Robert Ford Campany for excelent translation of original Chinese Master Ge Hong. Ormus

I think that Wang tell himself what his life looked.So he drink till his 52 and we know he die ill in agony in his 58.Now who is to tell that he Mastered Daoism and Nei Dan for less then 6 years and become Xian?Are you sure this is ideal Master whose life you like to emulate? Look what he do to his complete family and friends this is bastard and thats all.How 7 of his students was able to learn all for 6 years?Some of them be with him for 1-2 years only at the end of his life.And then they start new school.How lovly after 2 years of study you proclaim to be Patriarch and Master of your own school. Where is here 100 days of replenishing making foundation,3 years to produce foetus plus 9 years facing the wall as AA.Khokhlov proposed?We see that Wang didnt have time for this procedure and I ask how he cant teach his students when he didnt do it himslef?Come on and wake up people.... Ormus

So Dawei you find clues yourself.I hope now someone is to belive that it is not my nor Louis opinion but translation from Chinese Longmen original materials.And here we see Wang himself confess.What we need more? Ormus

How many topics are started regarding Wang?I see he have most active advertising here and on the net? Xian who need advertising on all continents is strange as I belive that students are attracted to Xians and dont need to be bombarded with advertising. So again no confirmation story about him teaching Nei Dan and results of it. Ormus

Hi Arkady, normaly I am also for the truth.In the end we cant be sure for any of such details about past masters because even what come to us as original Chinese source was redacted few times and for sure there are real facts and later fake documents. Storys and legends of past masters are important for us as inspiration and to give us some general direction,because of this we need to know our full genealogy.We dont need to opose that Nei Dan changed as Daoism evolved for milenia this is normal because new era bring new teachings and it advance.Also there are downgrading process which go to side paths and genealogy we use to see what is "orthodox" transmission from Xians.Today for us is more important who is and what knows our present Master who teach us....how this works and what are results.So relax because there is only NOW. Ormus

Good text and it again show how Quanzhen looked like in formation stage and how it is now. I dont know why Wang Chongyang didnt worked this regimen himself because he die ill in agony in his 58 year.Or he worked but method didnt worked? It is clear that when he die his disciples as group dispersed and all of them started separate schools with so diferent teachings. We also see Buddhism as influencing source for monasticism and way of life not practiced by early Daoist. Again drinking alcohol is mentioned and even in footnote some additional info.Young Arkady is like to read this because on privious topic he didnt belived that Wang and Ma drink much alcohol.Here we have funny excuse that only Masters and Xian can drink but novice and disciples can not.This is probably the same with sex as topic,because we have Lu Dong Bin who visit harlots and give them elixir and pair cultivation but Quanzhen monk is prohibited because sex is option only for high masters and Xians.How strange..... Ormus

Hi Damdao, it seems that we are to call for such papers when this suit our agenda,like promoting past masters and what they say about teachings,method and transmission,but then when we find document which say some bad information about idealised masters then we are to question this same documents.You know how this is called?Double standard politics! Ormus

Arkady you see again you reacted from the position of full ignorace as on all other topics.I know that you are at the end to say that those are just wrong asumption of author who didnt understand.But I am sorry you provide source you asked and source in this case Louis translated original documents he mention in the books.But as always you dont like to read and ask me to read and copy-paste for you.People here on the forum can see and read and make their opinion.I dont have personaly problem with you or your school,I just whant to post here what others find in original sources for all of us to be nearer to the truth. Ormus

Cultivating Perfection Mysticism and Self-transformation in Early Quanzhen Daoism By Louis Komjathy page 258 When discussing Wang Chongyang’s teachings in general and the Jinguan yusuo jue in particular (1992, 152–58, especially 152), he emphasizes that Wang Chongyang practiced internal alchemy early in his life, eventually becoming accomplished in it. However, he later became skeptical of neidan training, so that by the most mature phase of his life he emphasized the simple practice of mental purity and nonaction.6 page 51-52 While it seems that Wang intended to establish and disseminate Quanzhen in his native region of Shaanxi, the group took lodging in an inn in Bianliang (present-day Kaifeng, Henan), most likely due to the onset of illness. Wang Chongyang died in Bianliang in 1170, about two months later, and leadership responsibilities were transferred to Ma Danyang. After burying Wang’s body in Bianliang, the four disciples honored Wang’s request and made their way to Shaanxi. Looks like that Wang rejected Nei Dan.There is also info that Quanzhen when they started speak about Jing,Qi and blood not Shen which show how they understand it and how this tradition developed in many stages till now.Simple they dont have full transmission of Zhong Lu and Nanzong. And I find also in another document that later Longmen Patiarch Wang Changyue refused Nei Dan and Wai Dan too. Ormus

Hi Arkady, I dont have time to read again 2 books simple because you are not satisfied with what I provide.But I belive people here can see and check this books.Answers for this 2 questions are in this books.But as before you like to argue without clues. Ormus

Hi Arkady, strange that you first opose info from present autor then now insist for clues. Here it is and be sure to read both books to find more fascinanting clues who where Wang Chongyang , Ma Danyang and Qiu Chuji actualy.Because profesor and Master Louis translated original Chinese documents that I supose you didnt read as you look pritty uninformed. Louis Komjathy in his The Way of Complete Perfection A Quanzhen Daoist Anthology Page 276 However, because he held his own opinions, he was dismissed. Next, he tried a military career, but could advance no further than a foot soldier. Following this, he resigned from office, got rid of his seal, and abandoned his wife and children. Page 277 During mid-autumn, he passed through Liquan County,270 where he again met the Daoist. He hastened to greet him and offer his obeisance. Filled with joy, they invited each other to enter a tavern. They drank together, during which the master asked where he was from. 278-279 On a different day, he found a jug of alcohol placed on the road. A Daoist called out to him: “Haifeng, Haifeng, will you have a drink?” Master Chongyang agreed, and they drank together until the jug was empty. [4a] The Daoist then had him take the empty jug and fill it with water from the Gan River. From that moment on, Master Chongyang ceased drinking alcohol. He only drank water. Still, he constantly seemed drunk and would recite the “Yu meiren” (On the Excellent) Louis Komjathy in his Cultivating Perfection Mysticism and Self-transformation in Early Quanzhen Daoism Page 37-38 Around the age of thirty, after abandoning his aspirations for offi cial and military success, Wang had something resembling a nervous breakdown. It is possible that these events, specifi cally his lack of success and subsequent disillusionment with dominant models of cultural meaning and participation, planted the seeds for his future religious undertaking. Nonetheless, it does appear that he lost all hope, sinking deeper into drunkenness and becoming more and more alienated from his family.14 Wang’s erratic and eccentric behavior inspired his acquaintances to refer to him as Haifeng 害風 (Wild and Crazy) or Fengzi 風子 (Lunatic) (see Ganshui lu, DZ 973, 1.3a; Jinlian xiangzhuan, DZ 174, 18b), a designation which, judging by his poetry, Wang welcomed.15 38-39 The next major event in Wang Chongyang’s life according to Quanzhen hagiographies occurred in 1159. In the summer of that year, at the age of forty-eight, he allegedly encountered one or more supernatural beings, identifi ed variously as “immortals” (xian 仙), “unusual people” ( yiren 異人), or “exceptional people” (zhiren 至人), in a tavern in Ganhe township, near Huxian, Shaanxi. page 41 In 1164, while returning to Liujiang from an outing to Ganhe, a man asked Wang for a drink from his liquor pot.21 21 During this time, Wang Chongyang was said to have carried around a liquor pot and to have been frequently intoxicated. Page 42 Following this event, Wang Chongyang refrained from consuming alcohol. The veracity of Wang’s mystical encounters is open to debate and may be interpreted as a later hagiographical accretion.23 At the very least, the identifi cation of the supernatural beings by name (Zhongli Quan, Lü Dongbin, Liu Haichan) seems questionable.24 23 For critical remarks see Kubo 1967, 87–103; Eskildsen 2001, 145–47; 2004, 4–5; Marsone 2001, 97–100; also Hachiya 1992. Pierre Marsone is perhaps the strongest voice expressing a hyper-critical perspective. For Marsone, Wang’s mystical experiences were later fabrications, produced for political purposes by Ma Danyang. “Ma’s major contribution to the development of the Quanzhen movement was the introduction of the legend of the immortal’s revelation and the cult of Wang Chongyang” (2001, 103). For the end to ask you how Patriarch of Wu Liu Pai Master Single Yang speak what is Yang Shen when he didnt produce it? Ormus

Good text and here we actualy see who was Wang Chongayng,Tiranical man who die ill in agony in his 58 year.It is sad to read how Qiu Chuji and partialy Ma Danyang suffered with him.People often like to make ideal profiles of old masters and refuse to see their ordinary look.We see here how all his students dispersed and started their own school and all have diferent teachings.There are realy many strange facts about early years of Quanzhen and later Longmen,about their lineages and who survive and who not. I doubt that he realy meet Zhongly Quan,Lu Dong Bin and Liu Haichan.But we have clues that he studied with Mahayana Buddhist and this is clear in his teachings.For sure he was not even Ren Xian beacuse he die ill so young.He also didnt have full transmision and not all his students recive his full transmission.As Monica Esposito confirm in her writings much of Longmen Pai and Quanzhen history and genealogy is made up much later in XVII century. I advise people to read Stephen Eskildsen and Louis Komjathy to read what they translated from original Chinese sources about him and other Masters in this tradition. Ormus

Are you sure that Master Single Yang didnt write or speak about privious Masters? What are miracles of Wang Chonyang?Why you belive if funny storys and not translation of original Chinese docuemnts? Yes it is constructive buy books and read I dont have problem with that. Ormus

This is one of the most interesting schools. Ormus

Well Arkady, I see you like fairly tales about Immortals and like to be in dreams it is your choice.Authors I mentioned read original Chinese source and write their books.You dont need to belive this.And actualy I see you know what is truth.I know it is hard to accept to belong to lineage which started with such man and I understand you.I dont know why you whant that I name exact source when before this you decide to ignore authors because they are living in our times?Why not ingore late Patriarch Single Yang when he write about ancient Masters? Ormus

Arkady,you mentioned visiting Master to Dao De centar.And I asked to whom you refere because on your website I see there where few Masters who visited centar. Ormus

Dear Ilya and Arkady, every single word that I write is true and come from books of Louis Komjathy and Stephen Eskildsen and they belive me read original Chinese documents because they write about sources for all this.Both are profesors and Louis is also Master in Hua Shan Pai. If you have other clues please write here with reference and not what you belive or like to. Ormus

Famous Master Cheng Yingning who belonged to Longmen Pai and Yin Xian Pai,criticised Daoist school and Nei Dan lineages because of focus to Void which he see that bad influence of Mahayana Buddhism.He clearly point that Nei Dan come later after Wai Dan(laboratory alchemy) and that its work on Yang Shen is not superior and he say what is superior method of real old Xians.Here maybe is explanation why we dont see anymore real Xian in physical body but just Xian in vision or not at all. Here is the text: “Smashing the empty Void or pulverizing the vacuous Emptiness” are all phrases from Daoist books of later periods. None of these are found in any of the classics of the ancient immortals. This is because most of the ancient immortals began cultivation in outer alchemy. Their practice is entirely engaged with the material and the substantive (wuzhi de 物質的). It does not concern the empty Void at all. Nor did it work on the flesh body yet. But fearful of the complexities and hardships of outer alchemy, self-cultivators of later times preferred the simplicity and ease of inner practice. They switched to begin their practice with Essence, qi, and Spirit (jing qi shen 精氣神) of the body. There subsequently evolved the theory of Refining the Essence into Qi (lianjing huaqi 煉精化氣), Refining Qi into the Spirit (lianqi huashen 煉氣化神), and Refining the Spirit to return to the Void (lianshen huanxu 煉神還虛). As they later felt the theory insufficient, they added an additional level of Refining the Void to unite with the Way (lianxu hedao 煉虛合道). As a result, the Way of Alchemy had since then become linked with the empty Void. For Chen, the most catastrophic consequence of this shift is the valorization of the mind over the body, and to such a degree that the physicality or materiality of the body was rejected in the process. Most symbolic of this rejection is the modern practitioner’s contentment with the sole deliverance of his Yang Spirit (yang shen 陽神) through self-cultivation, and his all too ready dismissal of the legendary feat of “ascent by flight in broad daylight” (bairi feisheng 白日飛升). For such a feat epitomizes the true union of the spiritual and the physical realms, whereby the ancient immortal allegedly soars up into the empyrean with not only his perfected Yang Spirit but also his perfected flesh body (routi 肉體), achieving the rare wonder of the perfection of both body and spirit (xingshen ju miao 形神俱妙). Ormus

Take with caution Wang Chongyang works.Hardly is he Xian when he die because of big health problems in his 58 year. His wife expell him from house because he was acochol addict. His meeting with Zhongli Quan and Lu Dong Bing in tavern where they drink vine can also be his alcoholic halucinations.He say that they initiated him in tavern,can you imagine this? In his first works he speak about refining Jing,Qi and blood and not Shen. His intervention to separate Ma Danyang and Sun Buer hardly is moral and not to mention respecting others will and self choice. Ormus

Dear Arkady, the Master who wisited you is Longmen Pai of Wu Liu Pai student from Patriarch Master of the Single Yang? Teachings of WLP are for sure authentic Nei Dan.Problem is who teach the students those methods. Ormus

This is great oportunity. Thank you for real work and contribution on this forum. Ormus

On their website they write to teach Inner Alchemy but I dont know if they mean Nei Dan.Can someone clear this for us? Ormus

Is Kouk Sun Do more Martial Art then Qi Gong-Nei Gong system? Ormus

Are they Daoist or Zen? I see their website and it looks that Sun Do is just part of larger system. Can some post expirience with Sun Do? Ormus