beyonder

Nonsense. If you really think so, you have a poor grasp of ancient (western) philosophy. What has trickled down to the masses, is heavily influenced by christian (scholastic) propaganda. Terms like "cynicism", "scepticism", "epicureanism" and "stoicism" certainly aren't referring to the thoughts of the ancients, when spoken in general discourse. I'd love to see a childrens cartoon on Sextus Empiricus' "Outlines of Pyrrhonism". Or one about Diogenes of Sinope. I've seen Cicero make appearances in some shows, but those never focussed on his philosophy. Indeed, stating that something is "better" just because it's old is called an argumentum ad antiquitatem. It's opposite, claiming that something is "better" just because it's new is called an argumentum ad novitatem. In other words, judging things based on temporal qualities is a futile excercise. This also makes the entire notion of "progress" fallacious. Things wax and wane, that's how it's always been, and how it always will be.

Sidenote from the Hua Hu Ching (chapter 48, Walker translation): "Do you wish to free yourself of mental and emotional knots and become one with the Tao? If so, there are two paths available to you. The first is the path of acceptance. Affirm everyone and everything. Freely extend your goodwill and virtue in every direction, regardless of circumstances. Embrace all things as part of the Harmonious Oneness, and then you will begin to perceive it. The second path is that of denial. Recognize that everything you see and think is a falsehood, an illusion, a veil over the truth. Peel all the veils away, and you will arrive at the Oneness. Though these paths are entirely different, they will deliver you to the same place: spontaneous awareness of the Great Oneness. Once you arrive there, remember: it isn't necessary to struggle to maintain unity with it. All you have to do is participate in it." According to this chapter, there are two distinct methods to achieve "Harmonious Oneness" (wu wei); "The path of acceptance" and "the path of denial." Apparently, I am a follower of this path of denial. As such, understanding the mindset of people following the path of acceptance is hard to me. But I guess those people you're talking about have a temperament which is more in line with this "path of acceptance". To me, as a follower of the path of denial, one of the key texts is chapter 5 of the Daodejing (yup, straw dogs), since that relates directly to this path. I'd imagine chapter 5 being hard to understand for the affirmation folks.

Where in this thread did I talk 'bout daoist "sages"? Daoists maybe, but "sages"? To me, a sage is a plant from the genus salvia.

I prefer http://www.sciencedaily.com/

"Hexagram 30, nine in the third place means: In the light of the setting sun, Men either beat the pot and sing Or loudly bewail the approach of old age. Misfortune. Here the end of the day has come. The light of the setting sun calls to mind the fact that life is transitory and conditional. Caught in this external bondage, men are usually robbed of their inner freedom as well. The sense of the transitoriness of life impels them to uninhibited revelry in order to enjoy life while it lasts, or else they yield to melancholy and spoil the precious time by lamenting the approach of old age. Both attitudes are wrong. To the superior man it makes no difference whether death comes early or late. He cultivates himself, awaits his allotted time, and in this way secures his fate." http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#30

... Thats... Pretty cool, actually. Alright. That's not what I stated, though. I was getting at the issue that ultimately, wu wei leads to a normal life. And no extraordinary measures are needed over and above a certain detached (from ideas) and open attitude. I stated it in the most generalised terms possible (doing and non-doing. Kinda vague on my part...), but I could restate that as: "self affirmation and self denial are ultimately the same thing".

I on the other hand never agree with a non sequitur. Do tell how you reached that conclusion.

You misunderstand. In the final analysis, doing is the same as non-doing. That's why a daoist eventually lives out a normal life; because the sacred and profane coincide in the mundane. And sometimes that involves eating chocolate and sugar.

And why should daoists be ascetics? You know what asceticism is, right? It's forced. Daoists tend to not do that forced shtick, since that's at odds with the Way of Emptiness: "Does one scent appeal more than another? Do you prefer this flavor, or that feeling? Is your practice sacred and your work profane? Then your mind is separated: from itself, from oneness,from the Tao. Keep your mind free of divisions and distinctions. When your mind is detached, simple, quiet, then all things can exist in harmony, and you can begin to perceive the subtle truth." -Hua Hu Ching, Walker translation, chapter 11. Also, Ruan Yi and Liu Ling where notorious drunkards in their time, so there's that too. Regarding the OP, you are stuck in duality. Affirm one pole and you've implicitly called the other pole into existance. Dissolve both. To a daoist, there is no "egoism" or "non-egoism", since such dualistic notions are banned to the realm of fiction, where they belong. Holding on to such notions causes wildgrowth in your emotions. Keep your mind simple, and such questions won't even arrise.

The obstructed mind: The unobstructed mind:

Oh, that depends. I just chose that way of looking at the topic. There's plenty to discuss about the structure of just hexagram 1 though, so I think it's fine. When looking at the individual lines, they all provide advice to someone with "the character of a dragon", as Confucius put it. This is in line with the hexagram as a whole, where the Creative action of Heaven is symbolised in the activity of the sage, which benefits the whole. Some hexagrams which speak about this are: Hexagram 14, nine at the top means: He is blessed by heaven. Good fortune. Nothing that does not further. In the fullness of possession and at the height of power, one remains modest and gives honor to the sage who stands outside the affairs of the world. By this means one puts oneself under the beneficent influence descending form heaven, and all goes well. Confucius says of this line: To bless means to help. Heaven helps the man who is devoted; men help the man who is true. He who walks in truth and is devoted in his thinking, and furthermore reveres the worthy, is blessed by heaven. He has good fortune, and there is nothing that would not further. http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#14 Hexagram 18, nine at the top means: He does not serve kings and princes, Sets himself higher goals. Not every man has an obligation to mingle in the affairs of the world. There are some who are developed to such a degree that they are justified in letting the world go its own way and refusing to enter public life with a view to reforming it. But this does not imply a right to remain idle or to sit back and merely criticize. Such withdrawal is justified only when we strive to realize in ourselves the higher aims of mankind. For although the sage remains distant from the turmoil of daily life, he creates incomparable human values for the future. http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#18 Hexagram 26, nine at the top means: One attains the way of heaven. Success. The time of obstruction is past. The energy long dammed up by inhibition forces its way out and achieves great success. This refers to a man who is honored by the ruler and whose principles now prevail and shape the world. http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#26 Each line in hexagram 1 represents such a person in various stages, and offers him or her advice about the relevant situation. Heh, thanks.

In terms of cosmology/conceptual structure, hex 1, together with hex 2 are yang and yin, respectively. In one of the comments (Wings), Confucius (or whoever wrote those) notes: "All nines change means: When the Creative and large changes al it's nines, the world will be in order. When the Creative and large changes al it's nines, one witnesses the Law of Heaven." "One witnesses the Law of Heaven." The Creative changing into the Receptive, all movement, at it's complete height, changing into it's opposite, stillness. But the "I Ching" also speaks of human affairs. This is highlighted in the "Ta Chuan", section 2, chapter 2: "After the death of Shen-Neng, there arose Hwang Ti, Yao and Shun. They carried through the changes, so that the people did what was required of them, without being wearied; yea, they exerted such a spirit-like transformation, that the people felt constrained to approve their ordinances as right. When a series of changes has run all its course, another change ensues. When it obtains free course, it will continue long. Hence it was that 'these sovereigns were helped by heaven; they had good fortune, and their every movement was advantageous'. Hwang Ti, Yao and Shun simply wore their upper and lower garments as patterns to the people, and good order was secured all under heaven. The idea of this was taken, probably, from the hexagrams Ch'ien (1. the Creative Principle) and K'un (2. the Passive Principle)." ... ... Oh, right, what it means for me to emulate heavens. Yeah, no. That's all too big a concept for me. I try to think in simpler terms. I prefer keeping an unobstructed mind, no thinking about the past, present or future, no clinging to opinions, ideas or thoughts. Note that I didn't say "no thinking". My stance regarding those matters is best said by Ji Kang, a daoist philosopher and poet: "Music and poetry are alike entertainment I am alone but not lonely, needing nothing from others My imagination, if not soaring above mountains, I guard carefully inside, Where it rests." So in my practice, I try integrating both mental "movement" and mental "rest".

Not having a goal just sort of "happens". Not something I put any effort in. I'd probably give motivational coaches headaches.

My goal? Nothing in particular. Why? Do I need one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_universal_ancestor

While we share 99% of DNA with chimps, the differening 1 % is on some pretty fundamental levels. The coding of our brains in DNA is radically different than chimps resulting in a much more developed cortex for us. At the end, the article suggests this issue has "deep implications for human nature", but that's rather overstated, imho.

There is no beer.

We don't know what happened when the universe began. Because, hey, Planck Epoch. Also, no particles but quark-gluon plasma. Presumably. ... Except that there weren't any heavy elements before the accretion and eventual ignition and explosion of the first population III stars... So you're a monist. K. Humans are in the act of becoming, alright. It's called "being unto death", not "being unto cyborgs". But, hey, whatever floats your boat.

The Legge, Suzuki and Goddard translations can be found here: http://www.yellowbridge.com/onlinelit/daodejing28.php I'll share some thoughts, though I don't know if they are true or not. If you don't mind, I'll be going to be commenting on the Legge translation. Let's look at the first part: "Who knows his manhood's strength, Yet still his female feebleness maintains; As to one channel flow the many drains, All come to him, yea, all beneath the sky." Compare this with hexagram 16, line 2: Hexagram 16, six in the second place means: Firm as a rock. Not a whole day. Perseverance brings good fortune. This describes a person who does not allow himself to be misled by any illusions. While others are letting themselves be dazzled by enthusiasm, he recognizes with perfect clarity the first signs of the time. Thus he neither flatters those above nor neglects those beneath him; he is as firm as a rock. When the first sign of discord appears, he knows the right moment for withdrawing and does not delay even for a day. Perseverance in such conduct will bring good fortune. Confucius says about this line: To know the seeds, that is divine indeed. In his association with those above him, the superior man does not flatter. In his association with those beneath him, he is not arrogant. For he knows the seeds. The seeds are the first imperceptible beginning of movement, the first trace of good fortune (or misfortune) that shows itself. The superior man perceives the seeds and immediately takes action. He does not wait even a whole day. In the Book of Changes it is said: "Firm as a rock. Not a whole day. Perseverance brings good fortune." Firm as a rock, what need of a whole day? The judgment can be known. The superior man knows what is hidden and what is evident. He knows weakness, he knows strength as well. Hence the myriads look up to him." http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#16 Continuing on: Thus he the constant excellence retains; The simple child again, free from all stains. I'll get back to this one, in a moment. Who knows how white attracts, Yet always keeps himself within black's shade, The pattern of humility displayed, Displayed in view of all beneath the sky; He in the unchanging excellence arrayed, Endless return to man's first state has made. Who knows how glory shines, Yet loves disgrace, nor e'er for it is pale; Behold his presence in a spacious vale, To which men come from all beneath the sky. The unchanging excellence completes its tale; The simple infant man in him we hail. Having already discussed the notion of how the junzi knows both "weakness" and "strength", and how "the myriads look up to him", Laozi continues on with his discussion regarding the matter. He also introduced the concept of the "simple child", which is repeated as "man's first estate" and "the simple infant man". Let's take a look what the Zhuangzi (text) has to say 'bout that one: "In the Grand Beginning (of all things) there was nothing in all the vacancy of space; there was nothing that could be named. It was in this state that there arose the first existence - the first existence, but still without bodily shape. From this things could then be produced, (receiving) what we call their proper character. That which had no bodily shape was divided; and then without intermission there was what we call the process of conferring. (The two processes) continuing in operation, things were produced. As things were completed, there were produced the distinguishing lines of each, which we call the bodily shape. That shape was the body preserving in it the spirit, and each had its peculiar manifestation, which we call its Nature. When the Nature has been cultivated, it returns to its proper character; and when that has been fully reached, there is the same condition as at the Beginning. That sameness is pure vacancy, and the vacancy is great. It is like the closing of the beak and silencing the singing (of a bird). That closing and silencing is like the union of heaven and earth (at the beginning). The union, effected, as it is, might seem to indicate stupidity or darkness, but it is what we call the 'mysterious quality' (existing at the beginning); it is the same as the Grand Submission (to the Natural Course)." -"Zhuangzi", "Outter Chapters", "Heaven and Earth", 8 http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/heaven-and-earth The I Ching has a hexagram dedicated to this notion, namely 25, "Innocence": "Wu Wang / Innocence (The Unexpected) above CH'IEN THE CREATIVE, HEAVEN below CHêN THE AROUSING, THUNDER Ch'ien, heaven is above; Chên, movement, is below. The lower trigram Chên is under the influence of the strong line it has received form above, from heaven. When, in accord with this, movement follows the law of heaven, man is innocent and without guile. His mind is natural and true, unshadowed by reflection or ulterior designs. For wherever conscious purpose is to be seen, there the truth and innocence of nature have been lost. Nature that is not directed by the spirit is not true but degenerate nature. Starting out with the idea of the natural, the train of thought in part goes somewhat further and thus the hexagram includes also the idea of the fundamental or unexpected. THE JUDGMENT INNOCENCE. Supreme success. Perseverance furthers. If someone is not as he should be, He has misfortune, And it does not further him To undertake anything. Man has received from heaven a nature innately good, to guide him in all his movements. By devotion to this divine spirit within himself, he attains an unsullied innocence that leads him to do right with instinctive sureness and without any ulterior thought of reward and personal advantage. This instinctive certainty brings about supreme success and 'furthers through perseverance". However, not everything instinctive is nature in this higher sense of the word, but only that which is right and in accord with the will of heaven. Without this quality of rightness, an unreflecting, instinctive way of acting brings only misfortune. Confucius says about this: "He who departs from innocence, what does he come to? Heaven's will and blessing do not go with his deeds." http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#25 Right. On to the last bit... Don't worry, I'll keep it short: The unwrought material, when divided and distributed, forms vessels. The sage, when employed, becomes the Head of all the Officers (of government); and in his greatest regulations he employs no violent measures. I'm fairly certain he's referring to the emperors Yao, Shun and Yu, legendary figures in Chinese history, which are held in pretty high regard by daoists.

Even if you where disagreeing, I wouldn't mind. We don't need to see eye to eye to have a discussion in good spirits. Right? I agree with your assesement though, it is as if chinese cosmology is written in a different language. I'm not talking about the obvious difference between English and Chinese, though. The vernacular of scholars in ancient times in China relied heavily on standard works. Being familiar with those standard works and the symbology they employed helps alot in getting into the right mindset. The empty circle stands for the Unnamable Beginning. The yin/yang symbol stands for the Grand Flow. The unbroken line is yang. The broken line is yin. Below those, there are 4 sets of two lines. These stand for (from left to right) old yang, young yin, young yang and old yin. These, in turn, lead to the 8 trigrams, that, when stacked, become the 64 hexagrams of the "I Ching". What the diagram shows, is a cosmology based on the interplay between yin and yang, and their eventual expressions in human experience; these expressions are documented in the "I Ching". Heh, no problem. Note that what I was talking about is a somewhat more advanced practice; to intuït ones way around with the "I Ching" requires memorisation of all the hexagrams (not that hard). There are other ways, though. But, since you're not familiar with the "I Ching", those are going to sound completely rediculous. One way is casting coins. Another way is dividing a bundle of yarrow sticks. You could also use computer programs which mimic those algorithms (that last one might just be somewhat controversial). Why these methods work, according to the philosophy of the "I Ching," is precisely why they sound rediculous; Because those methods are random. According to that philosophy, there are no coïncidences. Everything within a moment is somehow interrelated, and as such, there is meaning within such randomness. I know that sounds rediculous, but just take a look around, in the "I Ching" subforum. Strangely, these methods work, regardless of you believing in them or not. In my experience, they tend to work better, the more you understand about this chinese cosmology. I don't know about duality, but the way I understand the yin/yang symbol (with the dots), I agree. That stuff is everywhere, both large and small cycles.

OK, then, what is the sound of one butterfly dreaming? Wait. I'm sure I got that wrong, somewhere.

Did I ever really get to understand anything? I don't know. I think I'll just go ahead and postpone judgement regarding that one.

I understand what you're saying, yes. Do I agree? No. The 64 hexagrams of the "I Ching" represent situations in human lives, which are iterations of the Grand Flow. Within these situations, there sometimes is movement. This movement is represented by the moving of lines. This moving is new yin arrising from old yang, or new yang arrising from old yin. The situations are described in the "I Ching": http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html How does one recognise yin or yang in daily life? Well: "When what you have studied leaves your mind entirely, and practice also disappears, then, when you perform whatever art you are engaged in, you accomplish the techniques easily without being inhibited by concern over what you have learned, and yet without deviating from what you have learned. This is spontaneously conforming to learning without being consciously aware of doing so." -Yagyu Munenori, A Hereditary Book on the Art of War Sometimes, certain hexagrams relevant to the situation I'm in just pop up in my mind, providing me insight into the situation at hand. It's weird like that. OK. I don't. Yes, though I favor verisimilitude over parsimony, when it comes to such criteria. My (intellectual) thinking is much more in line with the academic sceptics than it is with the scholastics.

Venerable Master, I'd like to know how wu wei causes integration within the Grand Flow, as I find this interrelation between being a junzi and reaching central harmony to be mysterious. Maybe you could shed some light on that?