beyonder

You think I'm using divination to get those quotes? Funny. More like "memory". No, those lines refer to what the options are to someone who actually is enlightened. Those quotes provides a better view than your "Just because your mind is fundamentally enlightened, it does not mean you can just sit around and do nothing," in my opinion.

Nine in the fourth place means: Wavering flight over the depths. No blame. A place of transition has been reached, and free choice can enter in. A twofold possibility is presented to the great man: he can soar to the heights and play an important part in the world, or he can withdraw into solitude and develop himself. He can go the way of the hero or that of the holy sage who seeks seclusion. There is no general law of his being. If the individual acts consistently and is true to himself, he will find the way that is appropriate for him. This way is right for him and without blame. I Ching, hexagram 1 http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#1 Nine at the top means: He does not serve kings and princes, Sets himself higher goals. Not every man has an obligation to mingle in the affairs of the world. There are some who are developed to such a degree that they are justified in letting the world go its own way and refusing to enter public life with a view to reforming it. But this does not imply a right to remain idle or to sit back and merely criticize. Such withdrawal is justified only when we strive to realize in ourselves the higher aims of mankind. For although the sage remains distant from the turmoil of daily life, he creates incomparable human values for the future. - I Ching, hexagram 18 http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#18

The normal, unobstructed mind is enlightenment. How do you "reach" it? You're already there. You just didn't realize it yet. This is the nature of the unenlightened mind: The sense organs, which are limited in scope and ability, randomly gather information. This partial information is arranged into judgments, which are based on previous judgments, which are usually based on someone else's foolish ideas. These false concepts and ideas are then stored in a highly selective memory system. Distortion upon distortion: the mental energy flows constantly through contorted and inappropriate channels, and the more one uses the mind, the more confused one becomes. To eliminate the vexation of the mind, it doesn't help to do something; this only reinforces the mind's mechanics. Dissolving the mind is instead a matter of non-doing: Simply avoid becoming attached to what you see and think. Relinquish the notion that you are separated from the all-knowing mind of the universe. Then you can recover your original pure insight and see through all illusions. Knowing nothing, you will be aware of everything. Remember: because clarity and enlightenment are within your own nature, they are regained without moving an inch. -Hua Hu Ching, verse 44. http://wuchifoundation.org/documents/TRA19_Hua_Hu_Ching.pdf The normal mind A monk asked an ancient worthy, "What is the Way?" He replied, "The normal mind is the Way." The story contains a principle that applies to all the arts. Asked what the Way is, the ancient worthy replied that the normal mind is the Way. This is truly the ultimate. This is the state where the sicknesses of mind are all gone and one has become normal in mind, free from sickness even when in the midsts of sickness. To apply this to worldly matters, suppose you are shooting with a bow and you think you are shooting while you are shooting; then the aim of your bow will be inconsistent and unsteady. When you wield a sword, if you are conscious of wielding a sword, your offense will be unstable. When you are writing, if you are conscious of writing, your pen will be unsteady. Even when you play the harp, if you are conscious of playing, the tune will be off. When an archer forgets consciousness of shooting and shoots in a normal frame of mind, as if unoccupied, the bow will be steady. When using a sword or riding a horse as well, you do not "wield a sword" or "ride a horse." And you do not "write," you do not "play music". When you do everything in the normal state of mind, as it is when totally unoccupied, then everything goes smoothly and easily. Whatever you do as your Way, if you are obsessed with it, or think that this alone is of importance to you, then it is not the Way. It is when you have nothing in your chest that you are on the Way. Whatever you do, if you do it with nothing in your chest, it works out easily. This is like the way everything reflects clearly in a mirror precisely because of the formless clarity of the mirror's reflectiveness. The heart of those on the Way is like a mirror, empty and clear, being mindless and yet not failing to accomplish anything. This is the "normal mind". Someone who does everything with this normal mind is called an adept. Whatever you do, if you keep the idea of doing it before you and do it with singleminded concentration, you will be uncoordinated. You will do it well once, and then, when you think that is fine, you will do it badly. Or you may do it well twice, then do it badly again. If you are glad you did it well twice and badly only once, then you will do it badly again. There is no consistency at all, because of doing it with the thought of doing it well. When the effects of exercise build up unawares and practice accumulates, thoughts of wishing to quickly develop skill disappear quitly, and whatever you do, you spontaneously become free from conscious thoughts. At this time, you do not even know yourself; when your body, feet, and hands act without your doing anything in your mind, you make no misses, ten times of out ten. Even then, if it gets on your mind, you will miss. When you are not consciously mindful, you will succeed every time. Not being consciously mindful does not, however, mean total mindlessness; it just means a normal mind. Yagyu Munenori, Hereditary Book on the Art of War

There also is a great translation of Xenophons dialogues concerning Socrates called "Conversations of Socrates," published by Penguin Classics. If one wants to know about the historical Socrates, that's the text to read.

From the I Ching: Hexagram 61, line 3: Six in the third place means: He finds a comrade. Now he beats the drum, now he stops. Now he sobs, now he sings. Here the source of a man's strength lies not in himself but in his relation to other people. No matter how close to them he may be, if his center of gravity depends on them, he is inevitably tossed to and fro between joy and sorrow. Rejoicing to high heaven, then sad unto death-this is the fate of those who depend upon an inner accord with other persons whom they love. Here we have only the statement of the law that this is so. Whether this condition is felt to be an affliction of the supreme happiness of love, is left to the subjective verdict of the person concerned. http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#61 Hexagram 58, line 1: Nine at the beginning means: Contented joyousness. Good fortune. A quiet, wordless, self-contained joy, desiring nothing from without and resting content with everything, remains free of all egotistic likes and dislikes. In this freedom lies good fortune, because it harbors the quiet security of a heart fortified within itself. http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#58

I thought I'd share some of my favorite parts of the I Ching. Maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't. Hexagram two, six in the second place means: Straight, square, great. Without purpose, Yet nothing remains unfurthered. The symbol of heaven is the circle, and that of earth is the square.Thus squareness is a primary quality of the earth. On the other hand, movement in a straight line, as well as magnitude, is a primary quality of the Creative. But all square things have their origin in a straight line and into turn form solid bodies. In mathematics, when we discriminate between lines, planes and solids, we find that rectangular planes result from straight lines, and cubic magnitudes from rectangular planes. The Receptive accommodates itself to the qualities of the Creative and makes them its own. Thus a square develops out of a straight line and a cube out of a square. This is compliance with the laws of the Creative; nothing is taken away, nothing added. Therefore the Receptive has no need of a special purpose of its own, nor of any effort' yet everything turns out as it should. Nature creates all beings without erring: this is its foursquareness. It tolerates all creatures equally: this is its greatness. Therefore it attains what is right for all without artifice or special intentions. Man achieves the height of wisdom when all that he does is as self-evident as what nature does. http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#2 Hexagram ten, nine in the second place means: Treading a smooth, level course. The perseverance of a dark man Brings good fortune. The situation of a lonely sage is indicated here. He remains withdrawn from the bustle of life, seeks nothing, asks nothing of anyone, and travels through life unassailed, on a level road. Since he is content and does not challenge fate, he remains free of entanglements. http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#10 Hexagram 16, six in the second place means: Firm as a rock. Not a whole day. Perseverance brings good fortune. This describes a person who does not allow himself to be misled by any illusions. While others are letting themselves be dazzled by enthusiasm, he recognizes with perfect clarity the first signs of the time. Thus he neither flatters those above nor neglects those beneath him; he is as firm as a rock. When the first sign of discord appears, he knows the right moment for withdrawing and does not delay even for a day. Perseverance in such conduct will bring good fortune. Confucius says about this line: To know the seeds, that is divine indeed. In his association with those above him, the superior man does not flatter. In his association with those beneath him, he is not arrogant. For he knows the seeds. The seeds are the first imperceptible beginning of movement, the first trace of good fortune (or misfortune) that shows itself. The superior man perceives the seeds and immediately takes actin. He does not wait even a whole day. In the Book of Changes it is said: "Firm as a rock. Not a whole day. Perseverance brings good fortune." Firm as a rock, what need of a whole day? The judgment can be known. The superior man knows what is hidden and what is evident. He knows weakness, he knows strength as well. Hence the myriads look up to him. http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#16 Hexagram 20, nine at the top means: Contemplation of his life. The superior man is without blame. While the preceding line represents a man who contemplates himself, here in the highest place everything that is personal, related to the ego, is excluded. The picture is that of a sage who stands outside the affairs of the world. Liberated from his ego, he contemplates the laws of life and so realizes that knowing how to become free of blame is the highest good. http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#20 Hexagram 22, nine at the top means: Simple grace. No blame. Here at the highest stage of development all ornament is discarded. Form no longer conceals content but brings out its value to the full. Perfect grace consists not in exterior ornamentation of the substance, but in the simple fitness of its form. http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#22 Hexagram 25. Wu Wang / Innocence (The Unexpected) above CH'IEN THE CREATIVE, HEAVEN below CHêN THE AROUSING, THUNDER Ch'ien, heaven is above; Chên, movement, is below. The lower trigram Chên is under the influence of the strong line it has received form above, from heaven. When, in accord with this, movement follows the law of heaven, man is innocent and without guile. His mind is natural and true, unshadowed by reflection or ulterior designs. For wherever conscious purpose is to be seen, there the truth and innocence of nature have been lost. Nature that is not directed by the spirit is not true but degenerate nature. Starting out with the idea of the natural, the train of thought in part goes somewhat further and thus the hexagram includes also the idea of the fundamental or unexpected. THE JUDGMENT INNOCENCE. Supreme success. Perseverance furthers. If someone is not as he should be, He has misfortune, And it does not further him To undertake anything. Man has received from heaven a nature innately good, to guide him in all his movements. By devotion to this divine spirit within himself, he attains an unsullied innocence that leads him to do right with instinctive sureness and without any ulterior thought of reward and personal advantage. This instinctive certainty brings about supreme success and 'furthers through perseverance". However, not everything instinctive is nature in this higher sense of the word, but only that which is right and in accord with the will of heaven. Without this quality of rightness, an unreflecting, instinctive way of acting brings only misfortune. Confucius says about this: "He who departs from innocence, what does he come to? Heaven's will and blessing do not go with his deeds." http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#25 Hexagram 52, nine at the top means: Noblehearted keeping still. Good fortune. This marks the consummation of the effort to attain tranquillity. One is at rest, not merely in a small, circumscribed way in regard to matters of detail, but one has also a general resignation in regard to life as a whole, and this confers peace and good fortune in relation to every individual matter. http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#52

conformity (n.) early 15c., conformyte, from Middle French conformité (14c.), from Late Latin conformitatem (nominative conformitas), from conformis "similar in shape," from conformare (see conform). Modern form is from 17c. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=conformity&searchmode=none

Except that the Cao clan (I take it you're talking about Yi Kang being married to someone from the Cao clan...) was in the process of being deposed (Sima Yi feigning illness, incident at Gaoping tomb, etc)... Those guys where alive during the tail end of the Three Kingdoms period, not exactly a politically stable situation. I suggest reading up on Chinese history, starting with He Jin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erZ2YidTZp4

The "true" purpose? As opposed to the untrue purpose? I'll just talk about what it does, while not caring about if it's the "true" purpose or not. Cheng Hu stated that "The book of changes deals with nothing but the principles of reversal, coming and going, rise and fall." His brother, Cheng Yi, added: "Written by the ancients, the book of changes is applicable to everything, heaven, earth, the hidden, the visible, insects, plants and little, irrelevant things." (Quotes are from "Verandering en duur in de I Ching," a bundle of essays by Wilhelm). Another way of looking at the I Ching is stated in Confucius' commentary on hexagram 16 line 2: "To know the seeds, that is divine indeed. In his association with those above him, the superior man does not flatter. In his association with those beneath him, he is not arrogant. For he knows the seeds. The seeds are the first imperceptible beginning of movement, the first trace of good fortune (or misfortune) that shows itself. The superior man perceives the seeds and immediately takes action. He does not wait even a whole day. In the Book of Changes it is said: "Firm as a rock. Not a whole day. Perseverance brings good fortune." http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#16

Here's a link to the Wilhelm translation of the I Ching: http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html It doesn't include the "Wings", though...

YOUTHFUL FOLLY has success. It is not I who seek the young fool; The young fool seeks me. At the first oracle I inform him. If he asks two or three times, it is importunity. If he importunes, I give him no information. Perseverance furthers. In the time of youth, folly is not an evil. One may succeed in spite of it, provided one finds an experienced teacher and has the right attitude toward him. This means, first of all, that the youth himself must be conscious of his lack of experience and must seek out the teacher. Without this modesty and this interest there is no guarantee that he has the necessary receptivity, which should express itself in respectful acceptance of the teacher. This is the reason why the teacher must wait to be sought out instead of offering himself. Only thus can the instruction take place at the right time and in the right way. A teacher's answer to the question of a pupil ought to be clear and definite like that expected from an oracle; thereupon it ought to be accepted as a key for resolution of doubts and a basis for decision. If mistrustful or unintelligent questioning is kept up, it serves only to annoy the teacher. He does well to ignore it in silence, just as the oracle gives one answer only and refuses to be tempted by questions implying doubt. Given addition a perseverance that never slackens until the points are mastered one by one, real success is sure to follow. Thus the hexagram counsels the teacher as well as the pupil. -I Ching, hexagram 4, Youthful Folly. http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#4

"Personality"? That's basically an empty concept. Just act spontaneously, not thinking of the past because it already happened, not thinking of the present since you can't hold on to it, not thinking about the future since it can't be predicted, not attached to ideas, things or people, just living in the present without any ulterior motive, and there is no need for such empty concepts, since one is "formless". My 2 cents, anyway.

I've got long hair. Why? Anti Qing sentiments. Not really, but I do have long hair. It's just the way it grows out of my head.

What is there to teach if the goal is ataraxia?

"If one does not count on the harvest while plowing, Nor on the use of the ground while clearing it, It furthers one to undertake something." - I Ching, hexagram 25, line 2. http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#25

Hey folks, I'm new here. I'm looking forward to discussing nothing with you guys.

It's a human concept equatable to emptiness. I don't know if it exists as an ontological entity. I prefer postponing judgement regarding the issue, in any case.

You're basically talking about this: http://internalart.tripod.com/images/taogram2.gif That's cool, but the Zhuangzi quote refers to how all that (daoist cosmology) figures in with daoist psychology, or in more esoteric terms, how the macrocosmic relates to the microcosmic. What Musashi is trying to explain at the end of his book (in the scroll of emptiness) is what Zhuangzi called "the mysterious quality" when he is talking about there being good but no evil. Wilhelm explains it quitte well when he explains hexagram 25 of the I Ching: When, in accord with this, movement follows the law of heaven, man is innocent and without guile. His mind is natural and true, unshadowed by reflection or ulterior designs. For wherever conscious purpose is to be seen, there the truth and innocence of nature have been lost. http://www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html#25

In the Grand Beginning (of all things) there was nothing in all the vacancy of space; there was nothing that could be named. It was in this state that there arose the first existence - the first existence, but still without bodily shape. From this things could then be produced, (receiving) what we call their proper character. That which had no bodily shape was divided; and then without intermission there was what we call the process of conferring. (The two processes) continuing in operation, things were produced. As things were completed, there were produced the distinguishing lines of each, which we call the bodily shape. That shape was the body preserving in it the spirit, and each had its peculiar manifestation, which we call its Nature. When the Nature has been cultivated, it returns to its proper character; and when that has been fully reached, there is the same condition as at the Beginning. That sameness is pure vacancy, and the vacancy is great. It is like the closing of the beak and silencing the singing (of a bird). That closing and silencing is like the union of heaven and earth (at the beginning). The union, effected, as it is, might seem to indicate stupidity or darkness, but it is what we call the 'mysterious quality' (existing at the beginning); it is the same as the Grand Submission (to the Natural Course). -Zhuangzi, Outer Chapters, Heaven and Earth, 8 http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/heaven-and-earth Or, in even clearer terms: In emptiness, there is good but no evil. Wisdom exists, logic exists, the Way exists, mind is empty. - Miyamoto Musashi, Book of five rings, Scroll of Emptiness.

Well, regarding getting the basics on daoism, there is a cartoon version of parts of the "Zhuangzi" on Youtube: The CCTV documentary series on the sages of the bamboo grove and the one on daoism on Wudangshan is also nice: Seven Sages of the Bamboo Grove: Wudang Mountain, Cradle of Taoism:

The Great Learning It is said that The Great Learning is the gate of elementary learning. Whenever you go to a house, first you go in through the gate. Therefore the gate is a sign that you have reached the house. Going through this gate, you enter the house and meet the host. Learning is the gate to attainment of the Way. Therefore learning is the gate, do not think it is the house. You have to go through the gate to get to the house, which is inside, behind it. Since learning is a gate, when you read books do not think this is the Way. This misconception has made many people remain ignorant of the Way no matter how much they study or how many words they know. Even if you can read as fluently as a commentary of an ancient, if you are unaware of the principles, you can not make the Way your own. Nevertheless, even though this is so, it is also hard to reach the Way without learning. It is also hard to say that someone understands the Way by virtue of being learned and articulate. There are some people who naturally conform to the Way without learning how. The Great Learning speaks of consummating knowledge and perfecting things. Consummating knowledge means knowing the principles of everything that people in the world know. Perfecting things means that when you know the principle of everything thoroughly, then you know everything and can do everything. When there is nothing more you know, there is nothing you can do either. When you do not know the principle, nothing at all comes to fruition. In all things, uncertainty exists because of not knowing. Things stick in your mind because of being in doubt. When the principle is clarified, nothing sticks in your mind. This is called consummating knowledge and perfecting things. Since there is no longer anything sticking in your mind, all your tasks become easy to do. For this reason, the practice of all arts is for the purpose of clearing away whats on your mind. In the beginning, you do not know anything, so paradoxically you do not have any questions on your mind and you are obstructed by that. This makes everything difficult to do. When what you have studied leaves your mind entirely, and practice also disappears, then, when you perform whatever art you are engaged in, you accomplish the techniques easily without being inhibited by concern over what you have learned, and yet without deviating from what you have learned. This is spontaneously conforming to learning without being consciously aware of doing so. -Yagyu Munenori, A Hereditary Book on the Art of War