topaz

I am finding in my reading of Taoist passages that they can be interpreted to do nothing. This is I think what wuwei means. Also the idea of wanting nothing means one has less desire to do anything because activity is motivated by desire. If we let go of the world, what reason is there to do anything? Why strive for anything? I would like to find a way out of this dilemma because it tends toward boredom and lack of fulfillment, giving up on life. A kind of living suicide. Do we become like the "Fool on the Hill" or "Nowhere Man" from the Beatles' songs? Is this is a temporary stage or misunderstanding on the road to understanding the Tao?

For example-- there are predators who simply like to pick on other people for whatever reason. They will express antagonistic behavior in various ways, sometimes by ridicule sometimes by overt aggression or criticism. How can wuwei be applied here? If we try to listen to know which way the river flows, our own fear or short-sighted anger may confuse us. Our path will be opposed to that of the antagonist who will deliberately put himself or herself in our path to create a fight. It does not always work to ignore an enemy. To vacate the situation is to allow immature or malicious people to dictate our course in life, and sometimes leaving the scene is just not possible. Passages I remember from Sun Tzu: If you know yourself but not your enemy you will win half the time, and if you know your enemy but not yourself you will win half the time, but if you know yourself and your enemy you will win 100% of the time. Another passage is that a battle is won before it ever begins, which means, I think that the best intelligence will win.

the commentary was good up the point the writer started explaining the strawberry. whenever someone says "Step outside and place yourself in communion with nature" I become skeptical. How do you do that in the middle of a city where most of us are? This writer may not understand the tao.

I know of another aspect of this. say you are in a neighborhood or country where there people feel that all newcomers or foreigners owe the locals money. Or consider the thief or street mugger. They look at you, your clothes, watch etc to gauge how much money you have. It does not matter how much passivity you manifest or how much in tune with your surroundings you are, they want to gouge that value out of you. In some foreign countries your only value to the locals is in how much money you give them. They will antagonize you in order to get this money. The mugger will mug you in any case, tao or not.

Is this strawberry story from one of the ancient texts, which one please? This person is a manipulator and predator obviously mentally ill. But this sort of behavior is nurtured in perverse environments which most work and bureaucratic situations in the modern world are. My response would have been to immediately go to the superior officer and demand he be fired, but as I said, in perverse environments we call normal that may not be possible. But that may be why Lao Tse's solution was to leave civilization entirely for the wilderness beyond the great wall. Some of what you say intrigues me enough to think you may know what you are talking about. If you respond I hope you will avoid the temptation of thinking you are any sort of guru or teacher, a disease that has made this forum almost unusable.

lovely theory, straight out of a book

"If you can empty your own boat Crossing the river of the world, No one will oppose you, No one will seek to harm you. .... Since he judges no one No one judges him. Such is the perfect man: His boat is empty.” http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/945216-the-way-of-chuang-tzu-shambhala-library

doesn't work

In Buddhism we are told that rebirth in good or not good realms depends on our actions in this life. Does Taoism have as its goal the same cessation of rebirth that would give rise to karmic laws? I think it does if my reading of The Secret of the Golden Flower is correct. But does Taoism use a different value system to achieve that?

Try this one then. If someone does not appreciate your --ahem-- advice, try not responding to him anymore.

The wind also does not have to watch its daily budget so it does not run its credit cards up. The wind does not have to contend with badly trained dogs who attack it, nor with cops looking for bribes.

Nice theory but does not work in practice. The fighter will also not see a master but only an enemy. The enemy may be really only a projection of the fighter's delusions but the fighter will still try to legitimize his existence by destroying the illusory enemy. This is the allegorical role many of us are forced to play for each other in life. I would prefer not to suffer while others make their mistakes, making the dubious assumption, as I am, that physical life should be prolonged because it has a mission which should be accomplished.

What I said was also a joke.

I don't think I have heard a more idiotic statement in a long time. Are you saying even if they are in the act of trying to kill me, I should accept it and die? How about showing compassion by hacking back repaying the loan of energy to the universe by sending a wayward soul back?

Where did you read that? I don't remember that line from the Analects.

I am following the path of taoism, so maybe you can do me the favor of not responding to my threads since we are not on the same path.

Reading books is what I enjoy. Maybe it's time for you to turn off your computer and go do something you enjoy.

Simply to cite the years a book was written noting that another tradition existed in the same culture at the same time does not really prove the content of the book was Buddhist and not Taoist. Or that the text was corrupted or invalid. It may be "understandable" but it may not be in fact the case.

This sounds close to the Buddhist idea of non-self.

The Buddhists are quite clear I think, saying that one's action in this life determine if and how one will be reborn. That is not common sense. One way we can veer from the Tao and also produce bad karma for ourselves is becoming attached to the actions of others, i.e. letting the emotions/intentions of others toward us determine our actions. We commit acts of revenge or anger that however effective set us on a path we do not like.

So it is not you but the Tao that is doing things? Rather like giving one's life to Christ and letting Christ guide you. A form of Bhakti? Where do we find these notions of "divine nature" in Taoist writings? Are we adding concepts from other spiritual traditions? Are we just redefining the Tao as the divine or a disembodied god for people who need a god figure but don't want to call themselves Christian. They don't want to say yahweh or Allah etc, so they say "the divine" hoping they can use it as a spiritual storage room and throw all their ideas of goodness into it. If we first say Tao then refer it to "the divine nature" then how do we go searching for this second idea or state? Do we define "the divine nature" as a collection of abstractions: goodness, beauty, etc that really can't be put into practice?

It could be my problem here is that it is a non-question because I have already achieved this to a some degree. Eventually we get a sense, a gut feeling about something, then our entire lives are infused with that and we get in fewer conflicts with others and fewer unsuccessful situations. But this notion of wuwei tells us what not to do but not what to do.

Being spontaneous can also mean having no direction. Not thinking can also mean not being wise since wisdom is precisely thinking about things carefully. Doing what you want to do in a way that will be successful based on having thought carefully.

So if the world is marching in lockstep acting like bloodthirsty myopic fools, as they always do, then we do the same? I thought this was what Laozi was doing, leaving civilized China to go to a place where there were no such busy streets.

One the contrary, that is the mark of an idiot. Like, it's not ok to murder torture defraud plunder, but when the government does it, it's suddenly ok.