topaz

No, there is no way to bridge that gap. You cannot be a warrior, especially one working for the state as Sun Tzu was, and be a Taoist no matter how many old yuppies and careerists try to make it so. The story of old Shu advises as much.

The concept is supported in The Secret of the Golden Flower, and the term used in that text for the entity that lives on after the body dies is ego, though I think what we call it is not important.

This is the OP. I hope my purpose in starting this thread (regardless of where other people have taken it) is clear to everyone. We have our practice (mainly sitting meditation) and our actions in the material world. Through the practice we seek the cessation of rebirth as it is described by Buddhists (Middle Length Discourses among other texts) or the immortality of of the "ego" as described by Taoists in The Secret of the Golden Flower. Buddhists also say however in earthly life we have lessons to learn (Tibetans) and that the actions we commit affect what realm we are reborn into (Theravadans). If as a poster has said, there are no such concepts in original Taoism, then it is just the practice that can achieve immortality for us. Therefore I think my next stop would be to consult the earlier Taoist works and to study (as was mentioned in one of the threads on sexual desire) Internal Alchemy. Any references to texts on these 2 subjects would be appreciated.

Well, isn't the dichotomy irrelevant if not, to the wise person, non-existent? The question concerns the outside of our being, in other words the acts we commit in the world especially to other people. Can these effect how or if we will escape rebirth, or if reborn, in what realm as the Buddhists say? Meditation in certain Buddhist schools (Theravada) is supposed to achieve this. If we achieve nibbana then we are told, in works like the Middle Length Discourses, that we have no more need of material life. But this is contradicted by other Buddhist texts that say the deeds we commit in earthly life determine the realm we will be reborn into. This relates to practice. What are we trying to achieve in meditation: nibbana/nirvana? Once we have achieved that, how can the actions we commit in earthly existence change that? And those value judgments of actions are often man-made, so how can we judge if an action is good or bad and will consign us to the realm of the petas for example?

Don't know how to use multiquote.

Can you give me a link?

I have felt that the two were more similar than different, but lately I am seeing very great differences. I think that the goal of the two religions in meditation is the same. The Taoists in the Secret of the Golden Flower, say that the ego can remain after the body dies. I think, although I am not sure, that Taoism like Buddhism believes in ending the cycle of rebirths. This would have to be implicit in the Golden Flower otherwise the ego, as the Taoists call it, would simply be reincarnated, which I do not believe is implied in the SGF. But I am feeling that the darma or dhamma of Buddhism is a stricter and more explicitly laid out program. I do not read in Buddhism of the channels, e.g., the Governor, Imperial, or Central channels that have such prominence in Taoism. The Buddhists speak of anatta, non-self, when they describe the sensifacient phenomena of the body. In other words, these are merely material phenomena and not indicative of a "self." But one unanswered question I have is that the pattern and combinations of these material sense events are unique to one person. Therefore when we say Mr. X is prone to headaches while Ms, Y is not, the aggregate of sense events one person has would seem to define a "self". I have not cracked the idea of non-self, either that the world has no self or that the body has no self. This seems like a contradiction of the Taoists and maybe the Tibetan Buddhists both of whom hold that there is some sort of consciousness or "ego" that separates from the physical body and that can be reincarnated or not. Theravada ideas on non-self may contradict Tibetan ones. But if there were no self, soul, ego or conscious entity of some sort, then it would be impossible to escape the cycle of rebirth because there would be nothing that was escaping it. Whether I should regard myself as a self or not is a mystery to me. Any clarification would be appreciated.

This is new member topaz. I hope to learn something about meditation for self-knowledge, self-control, wisdom, and perhaps to achieve, with some help, the goal of the secret of the golden flower.

Chang: Thanks for your greeting. I have read the two posts you mentioned. I am interested in going forward with my meditation technique, so I will be looking for a practical discussion on that.