Icedude

Here are some examples of "zen" (rock) gardens (that I carefully selected): This is how they make me feel: This is another rock garden: Do you notice the difference?

I was watching the movie Zen last week, and saw that Dogen was given a diploma when it said he had reached Nirvana. I want a diploma too! Where do I get one? What hoops would I have to jump through to get one? I'm expecting lots of clever answers below, about how people don't crave materialistic diplomas in Nirvana, or that I can make one myself. It's like this: If you learn all the skills needed to be a neurosurgeon, you can go around telling people that you're a neurosurgeon all you want, but nobody will hire you until you get credentials. If you tell people that you're a neurosurgeon without credentials, people will simply think you're a loon. ...and maybe you are a loon too, but you would have no way of telling without credentials proving it to yourself too. I tried taking internet quizes too, but while there are millions of internet quizes, I only found two pretty mediocre ones. (It said I'm a "bodhicitta", because the test maxed out at that result.) Preferably I'd like to prove myself for free, without even getting out of my chair, if that's possible. (Yes, that makes me sound like an overweight American.)

I was hoping for this thread to die down, but as it's evidently not going to, here's what I'm going to do: I'm going to make a thread in my Icedude cultivation subforum in a minute, where you can continue any discussions you may have with me, about diplomas or otherwise. I'll link to it in this post afterwards. I'm going to sleep soon, but that's where I'm going to post my next answer to these things when I wake up. You don't have to continue any discussions over there if you don't want to - it's just in case you have something left to say to me. I'm relocating because I don't want this insignificant topic to crown an official subforum. Then I'm going to ask the mods to have this topic locked. If they won't agree to that, I'm going to rename the first post here into basically "This is the general Taoist discussion chat. Feel free to talk about anything you want.". If you really want to take over this thread with derailment, and want to have somewhere to discuss general things, then you can have it. I don't mind. ...so good night. Edit: Here's a link to the new topic: http://thetaobums.com/topic/34229-discuss-things-with-icedude/

You know what, troll? I kind of agree with you at this point. I solved my issue a few pages back, and all I'm doing now, is small talking. I'm considering setting up a discussion thread at my journal instead, so people can go there if they want something. We'll see. I give this thread a few hours more to die down on its own. Because I don't believe in not feeding the trolls. I think that's a very cruel practice. I believe in feeding the trolls a healthy diet of discussion. Usually that turns them into normal people.

Would I be worried about any of you, I wouldn't be humoring you. Yes, we did actually compare symbols, but it's futile to derive anything from such comparisons, as symbols are rooted in individual conceptions. If you ask somebody else, he could describe the same thing in completely different terms. It's not really that "mystical" to me. This isn't the same as symbolism magic. The ultimate truth isn't a trance state. It's the opposite. It's like being sober. Liminal, you are promoting shutting somebody up for a week, at minimum, for him calling somebody stupid, under any circumstances, seemingly even under circumstances like "You're not stupid.". You are saying that there should be a "high standard of civility" that you want to hold, in a taoist forum, all while ignoring the full onslaught that's going on about diplomas. I don't even have to call you anything. I think your stance speaks for itself, whether you're just playing innocent, or you fully believe that.

Look, I can play your game too, where I very carefully and friendly question your sanity and other talents, and have you drown in a swamp of defenses after I pick apart everything you say, using very kind words. Do you think you're some kind of genius for trying that on me? Come at me straight or not at all.

When you're comparing symbolism, prepositions are like adjectives: They vary from imagination to imagination. Up and down, against and from, can mean the same thing. That's why you can't make an accurate comparison of symbolisms. No. Bah. I'm trying to speak clearly, and you think I'm being tricky. Be glad I'm not being tricky with you.

Well, there's a difference. "Stupid" has a context. These "fun pokers" have been trolling for over ten pages now, and don't really know when to give up. They're hoping that I either cry or get angry enough to say something that warrants a ban, and judging by me getting warned for simply saying "stupid", I'd say that the mods are standing by, eager to ban me as well. That's completely destructive behavior. However, what the flame-baiting trolls are disguising themselves as, is people who's just having a laugh, and even that disguise is wearing thin when they've been doing it for over ten pages, so even as "plain innocent jokers", they don't contribute to anything - they're not being constructive. Boy, on the other hand, is stating a fact that you at least can build something constructive out of.

Bah. I was just called stupid by Boy, and I only considered it constructive. You guys are weaksauce, and you can put that in your report.

Thank you. I try.

No, I obviously like jokes, otherwise I wouldn't have joined in at times. It's just that if you find that you can't stop beating a dead horse over and over again, then maybe you could be doing something more meaningful. Some people laugh when they're nervous or scared, and no matter how timid I'd like to be, I am a scary dude if you take me seriously. I feel like I'm intruding everywhere I go. All I can do is apologize for myself. This "freedom of expression" doesn't really go as far as harassment, so some of you guys are breaking the rules by making fun of me. You are only free to do so because I allow you to. Further, this is my thread in the sense that I've set the topic, and made a request, so changing the topic (like making mindless puns) is spam. If you want random topics, there's a chat, and there can probably be a chat thread as well if you make one. I'm tempted to make a "How enlightened is Icedude really?" thread, but I figure one huge thread about me is plenty. Well, yes - it is. Everything you choose to do, is stupid. So what? Can't I be stupid? Do I have to be "the clever Buddha guy"? Every adventure begins with doing stupid things. Adventures are cool.

Dude, it's symbolism. Comparing symbolism is like comparing imaginary friends. ...but no. If I'm even interpreting your symbolism correctly, I think what you are describing is somebody who has reached Nirvana a few times - stream-enterers. I think I'm "on my last reincarnation". Once I die, I simply collapse back into Nirvana. I've sort of lost my self inside Nirvana. I think it's called "arahant". It's something completely different. It's just that I wanted this to be a serious and deep topic. I haven't kept up with who made what joke, but if you're going to joke, at least make the jokes meaningful. It seems many have reached a point where their jokes are just "Diploma!" now, like they are choking on laughing gas. Some are joking about how I don't have a brain. There's no depth in it. I think I said that it was somewhat silly in my very first post, didn't I? In my introductory post in Lounge, I actually mention how people are suckers for names. Coming up with a name when you have no self, is quite a task. It usually takes a day to come up with something abstract enough that you think you're clear from people forming a name-based opinion of you. ...but no, apparently I'm "the guy who should watch my mouth, or we'll shoot you" now. Luckily there's a simple option to change my name if I come up with something better. I hear you haven't studied zen, if you think I'm tricky in conversation.

Yeah, pretty much. I think the difference here, is that I'm not reporting you guys for ridiculing me, because I don't take offense if you guys make clowns out of yourselves. Yes, it's borderline spam as well, but I'll tolerate it for now.

Well don't look at me. It's not like I'm tickling you. It's like learning how to play a guitar, and then reading a book on how to play a guitar: The book is completely useless to you.

I think you get what I'm trying to say here, regardless. Crucifying Jesus was "knocking him down a peg or two". I can manage my self-doubt fine without "help". It's not me being crazy. It's you wanting to think that I am.

I'll try as best as I can to describe it to you, but I don't think it will be enough: I dissolved my subjective concepts, or had them dissolved for me, and as they dissolved into nothing but awareness, my awareness came to halt in the place that you call Nirvana. From there I exited by rebuilding myself: By stacking subjective concepts upon subjective concepts, fully knowing that I can collapse them back into Nirvana at any time. If I visualize it symbolically, which probably makes even less sense, it's like hanging up side down from the sky, constructed of building blocks that you can take apart.

Ah, it seems you're the one who missed something, because Trunk later added this:

Oh. I was going by the mod announcement in the thread, but maybe that changed afterwards.

Cool.

Keep searching. Wouldn't want you to learn something.

There's just no end to the comedy.

Exactly: The TTC is about something. Well, "everything", but we get what we're saying. I'm too enlightened to brag. I just took "going to the bathroom" as an example. ...as in "doing the dishes", or "breathing". A common thing you do every day. Of course I've read said koans - I don't get what you mean now. I don't see any difference between that and "I'm sorry if it makes you appear stupid." in terms of level of offensive. ...but maybe it's because "appear" is relative to me. I meant "appear to yourself", not "appear to me". Does that clear things up? Edit: It's exactly like saying "Please don't take this the wrong way.", and I get warned for saying "the wrong way".

The Tao Te Ching is not "human excrement". If you want to put it that way, it's "enlightened excrement". It's like reading a phonebook: It has its uses, but only if you're looking to call somebody. Basically the pages all say the same thing in different wording to me, while at the same time it's all really fascinating and complex to you. If you've read ten pages of it, and actually get it, you've read it all. It's just more of the same. I read a lot of it, but it's like reading a lot of the phonebook: I'd be mad to read it all. The thing is that people get insulted by this because they see it as disrespectful toward the TTC and them not getting it. ...but it's more like me being the only one with legs, refusing to sit in a wheelchair to get around. I don't read other books. I try to find references to texts that mention something complex and relevant to the higher levels of enlightenment, because that's the valuable stuff to me. I also take it that you can't really phrase my words more politely. The actual insult comes from him taking objective truth on the matter personally, no matter how it's put. ...but I'm not even sure that the report was honest to begin with.

I just don't see how that was relevant at the time. The months immediately following Buddhas death things happened among his followers which he didn't predict in the slightest, which came to shape Buddhism forever. He never even figured his own teachings would survive enough to be needed to be put down on paper. Bah. Explain to me how there would be a better and kinder way to phrase that. I tried to be as polite and respectful as I could. What part of "I'm sorry" was lost on you? Meanwhile, if we are going to talk "insults", why don't you warn every single one of the people bringing up diplomas as a joke on this site? It's a running joke about me being stupid, isn't it? At the very least, if he's going to be this petty (if that's an allowed word) you can warn him about any jokes he might have done. ...so I can't take the warning seriously. How could I? There was just no kinder way to phrase that. ...but maybe I'm wrong. If you can come up with a more polite phrasing, I'll believe you. Was it the actual word "stupid"? Is "less gifted" better? Bah, I say. Why don't you go witchhunt the diploma jokers instead, if you want something to do? You show a good level of understanding. The thing is that teaching is less spiritual than being enlightened. The want to teach isn't inside Nirvana. ...and as teaching is tied to earth, it begins to need earthly things to work. Spiritually, a diploma isn't that beautiful, but it may still be necessary. Thank you. (I'm unsure of if you are putting me on, because it actually sounds helpful in a way.) Let me put it this way: Buddha used words in order to be understood. ...in the language of his country. Today people communicate their knowledge with diplomas too. It's the language of most of the world. They're all unspiritual tools to communicate something spiritual. At some level there needs to be trust for the teacher, yes. That's the same reason to why I'm not accepting diplomas from users at this forum: I don't trust their wisdom.

Tao Te Ching bores me. I don't remember if I read it all the way through that week I borrowed it, or fell asleep half-way through. It's essentially, to me, about a guy very slowly - veeery slooowly - going to the bathroom. I'd rather solve koans, because at least they pose some kind of a challenge to me at times. I'm sure it's very hard for you to interpret and understand the TTC, and I'm sorry if it makes you appear stupid, but you have to understand why I don't do that. It's probably a long way to the top for most people, and I wish you good luck, but it's not for me. Phrase yourself in words when possible. What does biblical genesis have to do with anything? I don't believe in the christian god. (Then again I can be Jesus with amnesia. I've never tried to part the oceans, or turn water into wine, but I sincerely doubt that I can.) Look, it's great that you read lots of books and learn lots of things, that's really great, but some people don't need to do that. They already know that, or they've already learned that without reading.