iradie

Hello, I visited 桐柏宫 twice. In 2008 and in 2015. The first time I arrived there, the temple was very small and the few monks and other people living and visiting there, very friendly. Me and a friend were invited warmly and when Zhang Gaocheng came back from travel he spent time to speak twice with us. It was very nice from him as at that time I was not yet as involved in studying daoism as now. Still he was very friendly. He also spoke then about his dreams of developing the place and restoring it. When I came by 2 years ago I was amazed to see the work done and the many changes. Not only had the buildings extended a lot, but the place attracts a lot of people, not only from the region, but also from the cities around which come to study and do retreats, and seek good advice from Zhang Gao Cheng and from the other Daoshi living there. Zhang GaoCheng has a lot of pupils and when you speak with them you can feel the profound respect and appreciation they have for him. The place is busy with studying and developing initiatives in particular they have projects around Taoist music. It has become a dynamic center for research and study of daoism. Many people of all ages gather there, and also young people and pupils of Zhang Gao Cheng. You can see he takes good care of them. He transmits teachings to people who are truly invested in studying daoism. But of course it is a question of trust, and long time, and being steady during many years. I was thinking visiting this summer maybe. I am trying to start a study about daoist medicine. It would be so nice to meet your Awaken ! I have read this thread and I wonder... When I see some of the aggressive reactions and badmouthing about other pai/schools and masters, I think these people have got very bad habits. There are many of these reactions on the net today, and maybe for them it is very usual. I agree so much with Awaken that the first work we have to do if we want to develop ourselves on the way, is to have a clean, clear and humble heart. Or at least try to practice it.

Hi, exorscist_1699 What do you think about using herbs to tonify the yang in the pratice of Neidan? I have heard and read some people do that. From what I have learnt the most important is to keep a yin/yang balance in the body. Tonifying the yang if there is yang deficiency is fine, but if there is not, you could create un unbalance and do more wrong than good. For Each person it should be different, but if you where using herbs for this purpose, which ones would you select, and in which situations ?

I have been thinking about this topic since yesterday. If I have heard and understood it right, my teacher often says that the goal of our work as pratitioners of chinese medicine is not to treat, not to cure, but to help people have a good health, so they can live long and realise themselves during this life. In my work, I often think about that. What guided me on this way, was a dynamic between my attraction, excitement, curiosity for the spiritual dimension and the necessity to find an inner balance if I should realise and be able to walk this way. So I started to be interested in plants, different forms of alternative western medicin, until I arrived to chinese medicine in the search for a system which combined a rational and scientific aproach with a spiritual dimension and the work on the qi. And I found out, chinese medicine is a very good tool to improve the mental and physical health and to gain a physical, and mental and emotional balance. It must be said that chinese medicine is not daoism, but chinese medicine can be a way of the dao. Having a good health is valuable when we pratice. If I take the syndrome of fire in the heart it is easy to understand. If you have too much fire or yin deficiency in the heart, you cannot concentrate and the thoughts run as wild horses in your head. If you treat with chinese medicine, the thoughts will calm down, and it will be easier to start meditating and concentrating. But you could also say that if you start concentrating and calming the emotions, certainly your heart fire will also calm down. Then it is maybe only a question of time and how far the patology has reached. Sometimes I think the treatment should be less and the personal efforts more important. Anyway, the treatment is not enough and without inner work to calm the emotions, the treatment does not last. I have seen many people in the west (and been one of them), who pratice inner alchemy or just start to do meditation or the small circulation, who do not have good masters to guide them, and many have symtoms, somtimes illnesses because of erroneous pratice. Chinese medicine is then a way to regain the balance, because we understant the process of the illness. As we pratice in difficult conditions (often alone), chinese medicine can help us keep balance through our search. Sometimes I ask myself if pratice does not stir up latent illnesses. Chinese medicine and my spiritual research is intertwined because I have been searching how to earn my living in a way which did not prevent to search for the dao and which eventually could help to be on the way. Working with chinese medicine is the best way I found. Last but not least chinese medicine is based on the same cosmogony, cosmology and philosphy as daoism studying one of them helps understanding the other. But that is a hole other discussion.

Thank you exorcist_1699, its very interesting and inspiring. As well what you say about the evil elements which can rise during the work with the qi, and the comparison with the plants that tonify. It immediatly became more clear to me. it gives me a clue. I also like a lot what you write about the "guide plants" and how to use them for balancing the energy in the body during meditation. I had never thought of using them that way !!! good idea. I will try. Yes, and don't you also think this body/mind dualism comes from the christian religion and way it developed in the middle age ? The body linked to the material world, the spirit linked to heaven and god and the opposition created between them as the evil and the good. As a teenager I felt releaved when I first came in contact with the Asian philosophies. It gave the opportunity to question the body/mind opposition we have been raised in in the west. Truly it is one of the main differences between the western and the asian cultures. Maybe we should say between the western culture and all the others.

Should we start a new discussion: chinese medicine in the western countries and how can we make integrative medicine function in Europe, all that from a daoist perspective .....

宁 For a reason or another you seem to have a certain attachement to the thoughts of people who think in a xenophobic way (hostility to what is foreign) . Whatever the reason for your attachment to these thoughts, and whatever the reasons are for these thoughts, there are different good reasons for not cultivting them too much. The first reason I have from a mainland teacher, who is also a teacher at the Baiyun Guan in Beijing. One of the main rules in Quanzhen is not to criticise other practitioners, but always to criticise oneself. Never to speak evil about others or spread evil thoughts about anybody for any reason. From another of my teachers whose heritage comes from a lineage of doctors who relate to the San Jiao but whose spiritual transmission is the Yi Dao Huan Yuan from Lü Dong Bin, I am trying to learn the vertue of sagacity and compassion. What he transmits is very different from what I have read in the small posts you showed us. I try to imagine what he would say if he was confronted with them. I think he would start to find the reason why these people say that kind of things. Is it a unbalance due to fear? malevolence? a lack of sagacity? What can we learn from these people to develop our own vertues, and develop respect and discernement in our relation to all beings ? I can see many other reasons not to think like some of the people you quote, it could be another discussion. Very few people in the west are interested in Dao jiao, and even less follow the teachings. The highest risk is that it should be ill used. And then, the first victim will be the practitioner him/her self.

In this conversation about learning through books versus learning through experience, I cannot see that there should be a contradiction. We have different tools to realise ourselves on our way. Writing, reading seems to me just another way to hear, and learn and think about the words of great masters. The advantage is that you do not only communicate with those alive, but also with those who are not longer in their human body, at least until they come and talk directly to you. We learn that when you are in the process of learning it is important not only to hear, but also to understand, to learn and then to put in practice, otherwise the bowl is empty or broken. that seems to me the same if you talk about the learning from a master who talks to you, or a master whose texts you read. In the taoist temples, the master is teaching his students by showing them through simple everyday life, sometimes they give them a book to read, or even read or translate for them, others do not even want to talk. there are so many ways. In my personal case, I just love texts because they have been a way out of a very narrow existence. Being able to hear some masters talk to us can be the first impulse to find new ways. I still love and need them for these impulses. But of course reading without learning or practicing is a nonsense, and reading without searching ourselves is being lazy.

In this conversation about learning through books versus learning through experience, I cannot see that there should be a contradiction. We have different tools to realise ourselves on our way. Writing, reading seems to me just another way to hear, and learn and think about the words of great masters. The advantage is that you do not only communicate with those alive, but also with those who are not longer in their human body, at least until they come and talk directly to you. We learn that when you are in the process of learning it is important not only to hear, but also to understand, to learn and then to put in practice, otherwise the bowl is empty or broken. that seems to me the same if you talk about the learning from a master who talks to you, or a master whose texts you read. In the taoist temples, the master is teaching his students by showing them through simple everyday life, sometimes they give them a book to read, or even read or translate for them, others do not even want to talk. there are so many ways. In my personal case, I just love texts because they have been a way out of a very narrow existence. Being able to hear some masters talk to us can be the first impulse to find new ways. I still love and need them for these impulses. But of course reading without learning or practicing is a nonsense, and reading without searching ourselves is being lazy.

@ 宁 Why do you find these posts interesting ?

I would like to know some more about what you mean, because I have the impression the chinese culture is so much the culture of the written word. I am not an expert, but after what I have learnt, the texts and written word has a great importance in the chinese culture. In my field, chinese medicine, the classics are the basis of research. It is a kind of direct link to the great doctors and teachers of history. And here I sit in the classroom with my teacher talking about Sun Si Miao and he invokes him as an immortel to be with us and inspire us. Yes, he is very serious and professionnal the link between the text, the presence of the immortels who have written or inspired these texts is very present. When I read them I feel I am in discussion with them. that is one of the reasons why I feel near the feelings of Chen Ying Ning on this question. But maybe in the daoist tradition, that I do not know so well, things are different.

Catherine Despeux : "Pratiques de femmes taoistes" (Practice of daoist women) is a recently published book about womens practice in the region og Zhejiang (I think, has to be verified...) if you can read french. I have browsed through it but have not started work from it, so I cannot say anymore. Steven Yudelove who is a pupil of Mantak Chia has written some books about: taoist qi gong, nei gong, and some basic exercices of sexual qi gong for men and women. His exercices are clear basic and and well discribed, a good method, but you have to take care with some of his meditation exercices which are not adapted to beginners without a teacher and can be dangerous.

Hi pathfinder The start is so exciting and so difficult ; everything is open, everything is possible. But as you say in our society too much is available. Some people are raised in a spiritual tradition and are happy to continue exploring and going further in that direction. For those who are not raised with a spiritual background or who's family tradition don't suit, we have to find our way in another way. Here are a few thoughts I have reached, maybe tomorow they will have changed a little. I am curious also about what other here mean about that question..... - Why should we choose to follow a tradition, when it comes to our spiritual path ? - Yes many here follow a tradition ... and why? . Every spiritual tradition leads to forms of inner peace and freedom. . There is no spiritual tradition which is devoid of humans who acts in abusive manners. . It is easier and quicker to follow a tradition, because of the experiences accumulated by generations before us, who can teach us. . It can be difficult to follow a tradition for many reasons, different for each person. - Have confidence, you can travel here and there and explore different paths, if you do it seriously and with respect. At a certain moment you will find what you look for, you will have to make choices. But then : stay and study hard and for a long long time. - Everything is there, you just have to open your eyes, listen and practice.

Dao De Jing: chapter 70 吾言甚易知，甚易行。 天下莫能知，莫能行。 言有宗，事有君。 夫唯無知，是以不我知。 知我者希，則我者貴。 是以聖人被褐懷玉。 - My words are very easy to know, and very easy to practise; - but there is no one in the world who is able to know and able to practise them. - There is an originating and all-comprehending (principle) in my words, and an authoritative law for the things (which I enforce). - It is because they do not know these, that men do not know me. - They who know me are few, and I am on that account (the more) to be prized. - It is thus that the sage wears (a poor garb of) hair cloth, while he carries his (signet of) jade in his bosom. translation James Legge

Thank You Ning and Walker for this interesting exchange.

hi 宁道友 Thanks a lot reminding us of this and giving me the opportunity to think about this question. 陈 撄宁 is born in 1880 twenty years after the end of the opium war, which resulted in the humiliation of the Chinese state and the free hands to the English, French, American and Russian to do bussiness and enrich themselves to the detriment of the chinese society and population. Becoming a young adult in this context, I imagine, Chen Ying Ning thought as many others, how to protect the chinese country and culture against the ignorance and greedyness of the western foreigners. Today we have to ask ourselves questions. In Europe the ignorance of other cultures than the european ones and the arrogance in our way of thinking is still very present. When our interest goes to Chinese culture and religions it is often a kind of attraction to an exotic dream, the hope somewhere else far away, the inner conflicts human being must fight don't exist. It has nothing to do with the language, everyday life, history and construction of generations. In addition to that, there is a problem with the way the westeners do their "shopping" in other cultures spiritual heritage. Because we in Europe have destroyed the last traces of the old shamanic religions, we travel elsewhere to find them again, because our culture and religion includes a negation of the body we look elsewhere to find inspiration to relate again to our bodies for our health and spiritual paths. etc... I understand the chinese masters and teachers are more than sceptical seing coachloads of westeners arriving with their ignorance and their (not any more so much) money, trying to buy a quick way to a dream, instead of what is otherwise a question of decades of study, personal efforts, patience, searching for a master and hard work. I understand they don't want to waste their time. In fact I often think they are much too polite. But for having spent 20 years teaching a "foreign" culture, which is my original culture, and having myself been in a process of studying cultures for me "foreign" for many years, I also think "traveling" is a necessary social and historical fact for cultures to grow, exchange, change and live. The interest in the west for daojia is still very confidential. Most people arrive through martial arts or chinese medicine. Few are ready to devote a lot of hours and efforts to learn what is necessary to go into this cultural path and understand this spiritual tradition. When speaking for exampel of neidan it is a question of personal practice maybe 90% even if the 10% of teaching by a master is determinant for the daoren to be able to enter the way. There will always be people crossing the borders, lets try to do it as devoted students and respectfull xuesheng and not as greedy consumers. And if your yuanfen leads us to a place and a person who accepts to teach us, it will always be according to what we are able to perceive.

Hi Soaring Crane, Liu Xun is a scholar who publishes regularly articles and edite anthologies about Daoism and the Quanzhen. He has written a biographie of 陈撄宁/ Chen Ying Ning called "In search of Immortality".

Excuse me, as I repeat myself, I have already said it in another discussion. What you have is called in chinese medicine : the syndrome of psychological disturbances due to erroneous qi gong. In chinese medicine, we have acupuncture formulas and herbal formulas to cure this illness. There is an artikel in english about the subject in the book of Bob Flaws and James Lake " Chinese medical psychiatry ". You should prevent yourself practicing qi gong or meditation without having a skilled teacher or master. I hope you will find a good practitioner in chinese medicine to help you out of this. It can take a year to get over it but it is worthwile.

I just wanted to react to this already one year old discussion. When I started reading Liu Xuns biografi of Chen Ying Ning, I felt like coming home. I also fet very happy. Here was a man who already in his young age felt attracted by daoism, who used the self-cultivating methods and chinese medicine to save his own life and health, and who was passionate about his research. But the reason why I identified with him most was than he claimed that it was essentially his reading of the daoist canon and different texts and his experimenting with meditation techniques that brought him so far, more than guiding of a special master. I found that very encouraging, not because I think you can do without a master, in contrary, but because for us, who are far from China and must work much alone, it shows it is possible. Personal work, studying and practice can do a lot. Secondly I liked this model, how he created this journal and a network of lay persons emerged and a dynamic was created which attracted people interested for self-cultivationg methods. I would love behing able to study this magazine which not only had articles, but also letters from the readers. I also liked his open-mindedness, after having studied the taoist canon he spent several years studying bouddhist texts. And even If he in the beginning was very critical of the cloistered and liturgical daoism, he ended supporting it .

Hello Kudos 100 There is something called "Psychological disturbances due to erroneous Qi Gong". You could say the same with physical disturbances. Another fact is that treatment in chinese medicine, as well as in qi gong can be long. Sometimes it takes several months, to a year or more to cure a symtome. If it does not do you wrong, and if you feel a little better, then continue until you are cured. Excepetially qi gong should never be praticed without a teachers regular counceling. I have witnessed several times things going wrong for patients who did a lot of energy work on their own without being enough experienced. This is the reason why you should never do qi gong or, acupuncture, or tapping whithout consulting a professionnal, or somebody having a serious study behind her/him.

When I suffer great losses I try to think of a story my teacher told us : His master who was an Yi sheng (doctor of chinese medecine) who also cultivated daoism said : You should live your life like at the hotel. When you go for a holiday and stay in a hotel, would you think about taking back home the king sized bed, or the swimming pool, the room service... ? You wander from hotel to hotel each one has a particular quality, each one offers you special comfort and you enjoy it, but you could not take it back home. It should be the same thing with everything we live : the people we meet, the things we own, the places we live in, we should enjoy them and cherish them as long as they are there, but we don't own them, we don't own the people we live with, not even our own body or life, it can also disapear from one day to the other. When we loose our loved ones, or the things which constitute our material security, work, home, money... we feel so lost and naked as if we had lost our life, our way. But we have not. We must move one, try to heal the émotions, the feeling of loss it causes us, and go on living our life and searching for the dao. Often on this road we meet new people who are fellows on the way. The spiritual path is not an easy path, and I think it is also a path of "destitution". I don't know if it is the right word, or of it is right thought ? As daoist apprentice we have a lot of tools to help us. Wisdomswords and texts, practices, fellows on the way, and also more concrete tools. I think about the theme of this discussion : qi gong balls. I wonder in wich context baodingballs are used in daoist temples? I have never seen it. But in chinese medicine it is recommended for many affections, sowell physical as mental or emotional. Baoding balls can also contribute soothing the mind.

It can be difficult staying married to a person who does not understand and respect your cultivating other forms of reality. don't fall into despair even when the suffering is intense and the loss is huge, it does not mean it is the end, just on the way. but of course nothing like that is easy, I hope you can find a lot of courage and help in the coming times.

I also read through the link provided by baguaKA and the contributions of Grand Master P and Wu Ming Jen and wanted to participate with my little experience. When I went there as a tourist two years ago for a week, I had a mixed impression and would have a lot to say. But I will try to make it short. I met several young people (and less youg) chinese and westeners who had come to train tai qi and learn more. They were really dedicate and serious and kind and it meant a lot to them to be there. For some, it was their lifeway, for others a meaningfull break in an otherwise busy life. Anyway they had come for meaning and created it being there. When I left, I had a strong experience in the train back to Wuhan. I had a long talk (several hours) with a young 25years old girl, her father and a friend. They told me about their trip to Wudangshan, showed me the fotos. Real tourists. and I was impressed by the feeling of what a rich experience it had been for them, seing the temples, reading the scriptures on the templefronts which they translated for me and tried to explain to me. Being there together had a kind of unsaid quality. Because I have been with a Chinese friend in other places, I know many chinese go in the mountains when they need to think, or make an important decision. Behind what seems a mass of tourists, there are people who are eager to find meaning, or to dream of other dimensions or to show their fotos back home or sometimes all of it. And we are part of this mass. And how can we go on creating a significant path also in this society, also in the middel of a consumerist world, also as the role of money grows, or maybe because of that our path is even so important. As I was In Wudang shan, walking along lonely paths in the mountain, I had a special experience. I don't remember If it was willingly or if it happened but I started seing immortals faces appearing in the rocks. And the more I walked the more I saw these strange faces and bodys appearing all along my way. I took some fotos, and thought they would have disapeared on the picture. But when I looked at them later, I could still see them.

"I have my mind firmly set on becoming a Qi Gong master myself. After not too much success with teachers in Europe, I learnt some Chinese and will go to China this July. I will just ad a few words and repeat in an other way what has already been said." Many of us look for some high quality teachers and it is difficult to find. But not for the reason we think. Nearly every time I met a teacher I found he/she was a very good teacher. But when I finally met my actual teacher, I understood, all I had learnt until there was like brocken bricks, and I had to start everything over again. It took me many years to find my actual teacher. But if I had not studied with several others before him, I would not have been able to follow his teaching. I have often presented him to other people but only one has gone on following his courses. They cannot see he is a fabulous teacher and his knowledge is rare and his teaching skills excellent. In Europe there are some very good teachers, but they do not all teach qi gong. They teach martial arts, and qi gong is part of it. They give what people are able to understand and see. Because they are used to westeners, they don't want to exaust themwelves teaching people who do not work, who do not search, who do not have respect for their words. But they continue training, searching, and exchanging with those who also do so. Becoming a qi gong master can be done with very little in the beginning. Find a few movements and pratice 10 years. Search for yourself, what works or not, create a form, work with some good teachers while you search for a skilled master. In fact I think we have too many good masters who know a lot for too many students who are not able or ready to learn very much. A student should be able to become better than his master. Today it is rare. As westeners we must learn to become very humble and work hard and regularly. I wish you a lot of plaesure and courage to find your teacher.

Can we practice/meditate/do significant energy work while working on other things? I have observed that it is possible . doing qi gong and getting into a meditative state. doing physical work and putting qi gong practice in it so why not getting in a meditative state while doing work ? To do some kind of inspired work, meditation is even needed. And in a certain way what taoist meditation exercices teaches isn't it to be totally "on the way" to melt into, to be part of what we meet in our everyday life but on an other level of perception and comprehention ? So yes, in a certain way meditation should be part of the everyday life,. Perhaps a certain kind of meditation, a way of gliding into on other level of perception when it is needed for our work or social relationships ?