Satya

Thank you GrandmasterP. And thank you for providing the input allowing them to be raised. I hope none of it came off as argumentative, none of it was meant to. I just have a recent surge in questions around these issues and have not yet arrived at any complete/satisfactory answers. Indeed. Litigious times, I agree.

Funnily enough, I came across that book recently when researching through hermetics, etc. Looks very interesting. Looks epic. And, the closest to a spiritual thesaurus/encyclopaedia so far. Thank you. From a preliminary look at the contents it doesn't appear to (specifically) cover the East much/at all, but, quite an epic work on its own, and the best all in one source I've seen so far. Perhaps there's an eastern equivalent that maybe be merged with this also. Re: proofreading/editing, there seem to be two copies that have been printed from a bad OCR scan and then the one by "Jeremy P Tarcher; New Ed edition" seems not to have that problem, not sure, need to look further. And, yeah, if there's no glossary/index in either copy, then that seems like a massive oversight. Maybe a searchable pdf would partly address this.

Very interesting Captain/Manuel. A lot of those people/schools are new to me and seem like a good start in the right direction re: Perennial Philosophy, and perhaps Perennial Technique/Terminology. Though, can you, or anyone, recommend any specific books/authors where there's a sort of spiritual thesaurus?

I don't know much about Chinese terminology, or practice, but I am interested in a thesaurus of terms. I'm asking a similar question: http://thetaobums.com/topic/34641-is-there-a-spiritual-thesaurus-multi-spiritual-linguals-wanted-perennial-philosophyperennial-technique/

Aetherous (and/or everyone), will give that book a look (sounds similar to the shamatha practice I'm starting). Thank you. Bearded-dragon (and/or everyone), yes, like I said, medication can work (though I'm not a fan). Thank you. Liminal (and/or everyone), ok, yeah, good distinction between clearing/detox and cultivation. And, yes, I learned after a little while of being stubborn/black and white thinking, not to rule out any methods, either side of the fence (western/eastern medicine/technique), and I agree that medication can help to get someone to a place where they can start doing more holistic work, but, (seemingly to me) of course medication does not cure anything. New neural pathways have to be built/old ones closed/brain structures changed through therapy (Jeffrey Schwartz [i think him anyway] has shown that not just neural pathways/structure can be changed [as a lot of neuroplasticity research does] but that actual brain chemistry can be changed through therapy/mindful will) OR, perhaps through being on medication, a persons thought processes become less anxious/depressed building new pathways and after a while they develop new pathways; however, the problem here is then coming off the medication and levels of chemicals in the brain, and this raises questions on the difference between chemical aspects and neural pathways in relation to mental health/recovery/the brain that are perhaps worth my investigation further. Practically (for me and others), this is how I see it: medication to help get functional, then (and/or at the same time) exercise (numerous studies showing better biochemistry from exercise), diet, (ensuring all vits, minerals and essential fatty acids [i see no problem with supplements]; omega 3 plays a massively important role in a lot of mental health, specifically EPA it seems [might be worth looking into for your partner]; happy to post some research here's just a preliminary online search: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15907142 but it's been shown to work/help for anxiety, depression and psychosis based disorders) and, what seems to me to be the most important, therapy/CBT/whatever modality is recommended for the disorder, either in person from a therapist, or self help materials, and stay INCREDIBLY diligent/mindful not to slip into old habits/patterns of thinking, for as long as possible, building new habits/changing structure of the brain. Alongside this, a meditation/stilling/getting familiar with silence practice would I think arguably be fine/beneficial. But, here is a difference between what you Liminal and you GrandmasterP suggest, in that energy practices can lead to health/or not. Qigong is said to be for health, and mental health is still health, no? So, in addition to other practices it should be able to be used for curing mental health, no? It is also still a physical problem (though in the brain), the main notable difference to me is that it's a physical problem that can be (after a lot of hard work) wilfully fixed/altered, after a lot of effort/therapy work, by anyone, without the (noted/mentioned/acknowledged at least anyway) use of chi/energy/cultivation/detox, but will and effort alone, as opposed to Qigong/healing/energy work in other areas where people are said to be able to alter physical parts of the body through will, but using chi/cultivation/detox. So, GrandmasterP (and/or everyone), why do you say that cultivation shouldn't be used in this instance of mental health issues? What sets it apart for improving physical health and mental health (which is a distinction that I assume you are making, but, correct me if I'm wrong)? Do you agree with my definition of a mental health problem being just a universal trait but high on a spectrum? If so, my question remains, if spiritual practices are about clearing out identification to noise/conditioning/fear etc, then what's the difference between a universal trait (anxiety) at normal and pathological levels? Would you say that meditation/stillness practices are universally ok for mental health?-(to me I would say they are) And, what about clearing/detox practices with regards to energy work? Also: I understand and partly agree with the sentiment, but A: I don't think that a lot of doctors would know what to say on this, or they'd probably just say go ahead, thinking that the practice couldn't do much harm, and at least would have placebo benefits. And, B: again, I repeat my universal trait question as above, what's the difference, it's all clearing/losing identification with the gunk/noise/feeling/thought/phenomena. And, C: This seems like a bleak statement/outlook for someone with a chronic health problem, as, even when it goes away, it has the potential to come back; most/if not all mental health problems are said to generally have a chronic course across the lifespan, fluctuating up and down. So, you saying not to go ahead until they're 'all clear' is both by definition difficult to understand/define what 'all clear' is (being currently well, or being 'cured' which sometimes isn't possible), and bleak for people who want to dedicate themselves to something more/higher in there lives. Are you saying these people can never do a spiritual practice? (Arguably it's good to get functional and then work on other stuff, but, maybe you can see what I'm getting at?) Manuel/Marvell, "Simon Maguz knows the Manly Hall" can you elaborate on this? And, yes, nurses are important, though, if they were all wizards maybe recovery rates would be higher? Liminal, Yes, though there are a 'huge range of activities', these can be put into a small amount of categories: Devotional practices (Bhakti Yoga); Self-inquiry practices (Jnana Yoga); Meditation/meditative/mindfulness/stilling/attention/concentration practices (often seen together with Jnana practices but also in most whole systems/Raja Yoga); Energy practices: clearing and/or cultivation (Tantra/Yoga/Qigong/etc); And then you could say that Yama/Niyama/conduct could maybe be called practices but that's more of a way of living/personal character/reading/conduct; Also, though these I am not so familiar with, so correct me if I'm wrong, but magickal practices and, similarly, entity/spirit practices (Kabbalah, Hermetics, Tantra, Yantra, Taoist Magick, OBE, Shamanic) do these fall under the same area as energy practices? Maybe some would consider physical practices/exercise as practices also, but I'm not sure I would. I'm looking to investigate practice and theory for myself and general research purposes, so want to gain an understanding of how all of these work, or are supposed to work, in relation to mental health/mental phenomena/thought/feeling, etc. General question to all: What do you think that a Lama/Sifu/Guru/Tau/Preist/Sensei would have recommended to someone with a mental health problem (anxiety disorder, mood disorder, depression, OCD, psychosis, etc) before therapy and psychiatry existed? Or, even today, what would they recommend? Still seems odd to me. Why wouldn't spiritual practices, being able to lead to such supernatural or near supernatural results (depending on what you believe/have experienced) trump therapy/medication? Again, I agree in using targeted/researched methods specific to the problem, but, thinking about all this is raising many questions about spiritual practices in general. If there are practices (like energy practices) that will clear out gunk/icky chi/stuck energy/karma, OR, through meditation/meditative practices that cut off/stop identification with fear/though/gunk, and are supposed to do this entirely to lead to enlightenment, then shouldn't they be superior in clearing out all gunk/identification to gunk? I guess science may show this to be the case one day, and like I said, CBT is like a self inquiry/mindful practice to a degree (but very specific/targeted), also there is a lot of research gaining around mindfulness/meditation/and spiritual practices in general as being effective for both mental and physical health, but I guess it'll take a lot of research to cover all practices. Unless we're talking absolute non dual Truth here, I know there's not going to be a simple answer, and I'm not expecting one. I just want to figure out/research/understand more the relationship between thought/feeling/mental health/chi-prana and spiritual practices. (Anyone can of course chime in, even though questions are directed at specific people). Thank you very much for the input everyone. Though, some of my initial questions still haven't been addressed; however, an important further distinction seems to have been highlighted (to me at least) between energy clearing in the body and cultivation. Thank you everyone.

Can you elaborate captain?

I was going through the forums and came across that book. In this thread I think: http://thetaobums.com/topic/33386-what-did-meditation-do-to-me-please-read/#entry515578 Did you post it there too? I've put it in an online basket to buy later (going to broke soon after this book binge). It looks interesting. I'm interested in the combination of spiritual practices and mental health for professional/academic reasons also, and, nothing beats an RCT to test something out (apart from a decent amount of personal experience, but, you know, that takes time). Can you describe the practice at all, to give me an idea? Among others, I've just started a Shamatha practice, following alan wallace and the attention revolution. Obviously the benefits of laser-like focus are self evident, but general well being is preferable and there's only so much time in the day to do practices (unless there's some esoteric magic time spell that I haven't come across yet! ).

I've split two of these off into separate threads: For mental health specifically etc, http://thetaobums.com/topic/34642-psychological-issues-and-spiritual-practices-shouldnt-practices-trump-therapymedication/ and For a spiritual thesaurus http://thetaobums.com/topic/34641-perennial-philosophyperennial-technique-spiritual-thesaurus/#entry543450 This thread I will keep focused on Taoist practice, practice questions, etc.

I have practised it in the past (you can read my practice history in the lobby). It did result in a good amount of presence, bodily awareness, but, that could have been just doing Ujjayi breathing for extended periods. Now I'm re-starting Kriya practice, in accordance with my previous initiation and the stevens, ennio nimis and nityananda books (mainly stevens and ennio at the moment). Obviously from the post, I've got all 3. I've read part 1 and most of part 2 of ennio's book and am dipping in and out of the stevens one; I'm not doing a thorough read of the stevens one ATM as the course [to me it seems anyway] starts as if for a beginner, so I've skipped between bits, but I'm also reading it linearly at the same time (as I like to know I've covered a book properly). The nityananda one just arrived the other day and I've dipped into it. I intend to read this one cover to cover too, but it's quite dense and only get's to the practice about 3/4s of the way in, if not further. The practice bits that I have read don't read as clear as either the nimis or stevens book, but I guess that's due to english being a second language for nityananda; BUT, for theory, the nityananda book looks very interesting (from preliminary reads), going into detail that I haven't heard or seen before re: Kriya Yoga, energy/Prana, specifics of prana, Prana Vidya. I'll be updating about my practice on my latest thread probably http://thetaobums.com/topic/34480-looking-into-new-practices-for-mental-health-enlightenment-and-then-perhaps-immortality-;-in-woteva-order-formerly-taoist-systems-of-practice/ , but I'm unsure about a lot of things at the moment, looking at many different practices/theories/techniques, so we'll see. I'd be interested to hear from more/any Kriya practitioners who have a good Neidan/Taoist Internal Alchemy knowledge.

The start of this/the title just reminded me of some Nisargadatta: "Your sincerity will guide you. Devotion to the goal of freedom and perfection will make you abandon all theories and systems and live by wisdom, intelligence and active love. Theories may be good as starting points, but must be abandoned, the sooner -- the better." "Whatever name you give it: will, or steady purpose, or one-pointedness of the mind, you come back to earnestness, sincerity, honesty. When you are in dead earnest, you bend every incident, every second of your life to your purpose. You do not waste time and energy on other things. You are totally dedicated, call it will, or love, or plain honesty. We are complex beings, at war within and without. We contradict ourselves all the time, undoing today the work of yesterday. No wonder we are stuck. A little of integrity would make a lot of difference." "You need not chase the 'I am' to kill it. You cannot. All you need is a sincere longing for reality. We call it atma-bhakti, the love of the Supreme: or moksha-sankalpa, the determination to be free from the false. Without love, and will inspired by love, nothing can be done. Merely talking about Reality without doing anything about it is self-defeating. There must be love in the relation between the person who says 'I am' and the observer of that 'I am'. As long as the observer, the inner self, the 'higher' self, considers himself apart from the observed, the 'lower' self, despises it and condemns it, the situation is hopeless. It is only when the observer (vyakta) accepts the person (vyakti) as a projection or manifestation of himself, and, so to say, takes the self into the Self, the duality of 'I' and 'this' goes and in the identity of the outer and the inner the Supreme Reality manifests itself. This union of the seer and the seen happens when the seer becomes conscious of himself as the seer, he is not merely interested in the seen, which he is anyhow, but also interested in being interested, giving attention to attention, aware of being aware. Affectionate awareness is the crucial factor that brings Reality into focus." "...what is needed is sincere interest. Earnestness does it." All excerpts from I Am That

Sorry for the essay (given titles to the sections for easier reading). Thank you all for the suggestions (I have not yet, but am going to look at giving some of them a go). Any feedback/recommendations/discourse would be much appreciated. I've split off the sections on spiritual practices and mental health and a spiritual thesaurus into other threads, as detailed in the below post. I'm now going to change the text colour for the off topic discussion, and keep this one on Taoist practices/practices. Current Practices Since posting I have, for now, started a Shamatha practice as my main focus, following alan wallace: the attention revolution, as opposed to energy work, (and deciphering which of the many systems may or may not be effective etc) the benefits of improved attention are obvious (for spiritual and practical life purposes). Also (going against what I said energy work wise ) I have partly restarted Kriya Yoga, according to the Stevens book, combined with Ennio Nimis and Nityananda Giri (and what I was taught in my previous induction/initiation); hoping that, at least, talabya kriya (which leads to calmness on its own) will lead to khechari, which seems to be an important/indicated practice in most all systems. I'm thinking of adding some basic Qigong/Chinese stuff to the start of my Kriya practice maybe. Something like the 8 Brocades https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQbfysOBxhI, or some basic sprint forest techniques (that I think I read about but now I can't find), or one of these: Other Practices I'm still interested in other practices. Trawling the forums (I've been doing a lot of reading on here) I've come across KAP, which looks interesting. At first I thought it seemed a bit new agey, but on closer inspection, it looks interesting, and according to most people on here, it seems legit, so, partly thinking about doing KAP 1 and then trying other practices that focus on directing energy for healing self and others, etc. Does anyone know if KAP results in (relatively) quick Samadhi experiences practice wise? Taoist Internal Alchemy/Neidan I am still interested by neidan/Taoist internal alchemy. I have gone on a bit of a book binge and gotten: Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu (Ping and Liao), Taoist Yoga Kuanyu Lu, The Complete System of Self-Healing: Internal Exercises (Chang), CHINESE MEDICAL QIGONG THERAPY- A COMPREHENSIVE CLINICAL TEXT JERRY ALAN JOHNSON (the earlier, all in one version), and managed to find a whole load of Mantak Chia online (Awaken Healing Energy Through the Tao, Iron Shirt Chi Kung, Inner Smile, Cosmic Orbit and more). Not sure, if at all, where to start. Jerry Alan Johnson's stuff looks to be of a high calibre, and very interesting. I want the Taoist Internal Alchemy Neidan book but it's VERY expensive (compared to any book I've ever bought). At the moment I've got an assignment to be working on, so that takes precedence for the next few weeks. Finding a Teacher: Qigong/Taoist Practices/Teacher/Yoga Comparison I am not opposed to finding a teacher for Qigong practices, etc. As opposed to Indian traditions, I'm interested by the (possibly?) slightly more specific instructions, details and directions for energy work in Chinese traditions, for interest, self-healing and healing others sake. Though, contradicting myself again, saying that, I have recently come across some prana vidya texts, which have more detail than what I have read previously. One of which is the Nityananda Kriya book. Teacher wise, I live in the UK, midlands area (for personal privacy I don't want to be more specific). Perhaps one/some of you could recommend UK based schools and I could look on the websites for local teachers? Perennial Philosophy/Perennial Technique: Spiritual Thesaurus My vocabulary of terms and practices is pretty much solely western or Indian/Sankrit/Yoga/Tantra, etc, so I'm hoping the translation of terms/practices will be easy enough. Along those lines (perhaps I should start a new thread for this), does anyone know of any book, pdf or website (preferably an all in one source) that serves as a sort of spiritual thesaurus between the different traditions/geographical locations? Or a spreadsheet/chart? I believe/know there is a perennial philosophy (Truth is Truth, right?) and like to think that there's a perennial practice as well (hence the similarities between Self Inquiry/Philosophy systems [Jnana, Zen, Buddhism, Advaita, Gnosis, Sufism] and energy work systems [Yoga, Tantra, Neidan, Taoist, Tibetan, Christian Kabbalah, Kabbalah, Dhikr etc; humans are all built the same, right?]). If no such document exists then perhaps this would be an interesting project to take up on here/and through other forums. Part of me that likes to think of universal theory/practice is a bit apprehensive about starting on a new route and coming across potential clashes/dissonances throughout traditions, but I guess this is just ego attachment/fear. Psychological Issues and Spiritual Practices: Shouldn't Practices Trump Therapy/Medication? Also, Rocky Lionmouth, re: I agree with finding help, specifically tailored to the problem at hand. But, in addition, here is some story and some thoughts: After an initial year (years ago) of aversion to ANY western method (during my spiritual, put your money where your mouth is phase), I have since been in contact with western medicine doctors, therapists, etc for the past few years. No doubt, CBT and medication do work, and seem to have been the only thing that has worked for the severe anxiety (which will teach me to think in black and white "Only spiritual practices should help blah blah, etc")-(mainly the CBT/I believe [and the science points to] that it results in new neural pathways/neuroplasticity/a change in brain structure). What Do Spiritual Practices Do? This makes me wonder about practices in general. Aren't spiritual practices about clearing out the karma/conditioning/habits/attachment to-or-belief in thought-fear-worry-separation/fear/lies/falseness? This is how I have been taught/come to understand energy practices like Kriya Yoga, Tantra, Yoga, etc, that the spinal breathing is clearing obstructions/conditioning/karma out. And, then, self inquiry/meditative practices seem to be about highlighting Truth/True self, sitting/being with True self/stillness and slowly seeing through thought, undoing reactivity and attachment to thought/feeling, becoming less identified with noise and more with silence/stillness/emptiness/nothingness underneath/behind/between/at the birth of the noise, building new neural pathways perhaps/most likely, and in becoming less identified with noise, less noise arises? What Is a Psychological 'Problem'? All a psychological condition is, is an extreme instance, high on the spectrum, of a trait/phenomena that is present in ALL humans: fear, neurosis, depression, psychosis, etc. We all experience these things, but when one area gets out of balance it's labeled pathological, but it's all just noise, and spiritual practices are surely about clearing out this noise/and or attachment to/belief in noise, no? (this isn't typed argumentatively, in case it comes off that way; I'm genuinely asking myself/pondering all of these issues currently). CBT works. I guess CBT is like a forced kind of self inquiry type thing, that focuses on the specific issue at hand. It is very similar to the lower stages of self inquiry. So Why Not Just Do CBT/Therapy? So, you may ask, if CBT works, then why don't you just do that and then once you're sorted get back on spiritual practices? Well, it worked, (CBT and an SSRI [i hate medication, but I was out of options]) I had about 1 month of being fully 'functional'/back to normal compared to how I was when all of this pathological instance of anxiety started, but then it came back. So, I guess I should just keep up with CBT and stay proactive with that (perhaps set myself a weekly CBT reminder practice for life, like a spiritual practice, to keep tabs on myself) but, it's hard, AND, the fact that the issues came back points to me to a more underlying issue perhaps, maybe? I don't know. I'm sure with pro active CBT for years I would hopefully, eventually restructure/rewire my brain so the issues are non existent, but, again, this is difficult, it's very easy to relapse, and, why can't a spiritual practice also do this? Or, at least they should help right? (these are half rhetorical questions). In addition, CBT, for me anyway, to fully work, I need (or at least feel I need and have in the past needed) the help of a physical therapist, to 'bully me' (I joke, but being almost forced in an agreed way is needed) into doing exposures/the CBT work. Self help materials don't seem to be enough. Hence why a spiritual practice to clear out mental gunk is preferable, as, therapy is expensive, and government/NHS support takes ages (I've been waiting for over a year now for an NHS therapist/psychologist, after seeing one initially and it working my sessions ran out). Conclusion/Ending Good god, that's a lot of writing. Probably worth a few different threads, and maybe I'll split it up. I hope it was interesting reading if you made it this far. Hopefully through my journey of overcoming fear/blockages/illness/illusion I will be able to share and benefit others. Lastly, I came across this the other night. Some simple, mainstream Alan Watts, but, a nice reminder to enjoy the journey, so, thought I'd share. Also, reading through everyone's posts, this reminded me of it. To myself and others: Enjoy the journey. Be innocently curious rather than anxious when and where you can.

Hello, I have joined for general discussion on various topics, suggestions on practices, etc. 'Spiritual' Background Brief: Occultism, entheogens, Buddhism, all-ism (all Masters from all major religions/all texts and modern masters and general breath meditation), distraction, Bihar School of Yoga, Kriya Yoga: SRF teachings, then Kriya Initiation into Hamsa Yoga by Yogiraj Gurunath Siddhanath, unease about secrecy + anxiety issues, neoadvaita: Eckhart Tolle, Adyashanit, Mooji, then AYP, more neoadvaita and for a couple of years now no solid practice but various neoadvaita readings and occasional AYP practices. Still having anxiety issues. Now looking into taking AYP up full time or Kriya (JC stevens or Ennios Nimis), or some other practice. Looking for what works. 'Spiritual' Background Thorough: I started off with some interest in occultism stuff at a young age, was interested by entheogens, then a brief stint with buddhist stuff (but never liked focus on one particular Master or set of Masters), then went onto a meditation group where all Masters/Texts from all systems were welcomed and read, then got a little distracted, then had a reignitition of interest and purchased/read a lot of Bihar school of Yoga/Satyananda Saraswati stuff, then wanted a concise/succinct system to practice for results so got into Kriya Yoga (Lahiri Mahasaya's), read SRF stuff for a bit, was initiated into Hamsa Yoga (Yogiraj Gurunath), but didn't feel right about the whole secrecy thing and the uncertainty of the various schools all saying their's was the true Kriya (did have good relaxed feelings after long Kriya sessions, admittedly, but I think that would be the case for any nuance on top of deep Ujjayi breathing for 30 or so minutes straight), that drove me crazy for a while (the secrecy/uncertainty, also, I had anxiety issues), around the same time as interest in Kriya was sparked I happened across Eckhart Tolle and loved his approach, it was the first modern sort of Jnana Yoga/Advaita/Non-Dual type approach I had come across (I had read bits and bobs of older classic texts, Tao Te Ching, Dhammapada, Bhagavad Gita, and liked what I read, but various interpretations and occasional allegories didn't hit home as much as the modern day written in English stuff), I had good results from just reading and contemplating on the book 'The Power of Now', through youtube binges of Eckhart etc, came across Adyashanti (loved his talks even more) and Mooji, all this around same time as Kriya interest, but like I said, a little while after initiation, the uncertainties drove me nuts (also developed a lot of anxiety, possibly due to life circumstance, but though practices should be getting rid of all things like that), went to see Mooji, had a beautiful Sitori like experience, felt truly happy/present, awake, here, now, free, no division (when walking to the train station when the last day at the end of the weekend finished; this was especially good as I had recently developed SERIOUS anxiety issues before), decided to stop Kriya, had come across the AYP site around the time I was looking at different types/schools of Kriya Yoga, found it a useful open resource for advice and guidance/discussion, then started practising AYP alongside reading Neoadvaita/Zen etc (Mooji, Gangaji, Adyashanti, Eckhart Tolle), have been on and off AYP for a while, had some good results but, again, anxiety issues (admittedly when university got intense and I didn't do my practices as much), since then, a little reading here and there into Christian Gnosis, Tau Malachi (but not taking up any regular practice), lucid dreaming/OBE stuff, and various other interesting reads of different people, (Franklin Merrel-Wolf, Douglas Harding, Nisargadatta, Jed Mckenna, Livind Unbound, A course in miracles), resonate and love all of what they say, all axiomatically true, get it all on the level of mind, but have had no solid practice for a while and still have anxiety issues, now looking into starting J.C. Stevens or Ennio Nimis Kriya Yoga, or returning to AYP pracitce, or Tau Malachi's Christian Gnosis, or even some Zen, Buddhist, Taoist, Kundalini Yoga practices. I'm just looking for what works.