EFS White

Thanks to everyone keeping this discussion alive and interesting. -- @FraterUFA Well, yeah, I am really glad you came back later when you had more time for a more elaborate response. Above statement, even if you are right, is not very instructive or well-argued. If you examine how you have attained everything you think you know and everything you believe in, do you not find that everything had, if it something you consciously believe in at some point to be passed by your internal BS-filter? Deciding whether x is something you do indeed or do not believe. Is it merely a misunderstanding of words or does that sound like a subjective assessment and re-composition? Hence, "subjective synthesis"? SMTWTFS This input of yours is very intriguing. If we assume "Wednesday" as the day of the (alchemical) wedding, union of opposites, it indeed is interpretable as a sort of mirror for the week: with two "s"-s at either end of the scale, then "m" (Monday) and "f" (Friday), which I would love to read as masculine and feminine -- which however doesn't correspond very well with the assumption that the moon is more of a female energy. However, one could consider the Moon and Freia (Venus) days as the feminine, and the two crosses (Tyr and Thor) as the two masculine days. So yeah, makes for a nice mirroring. And I do find it more than intriguing to thereby "oppose" the Sun and Saturn (the black sun) at two ends of the spectrum. Hmm. Very interesting indeed. -- @noonespecial So, well, I must have interpreted this term wrongly. But thank you for clariying your point of view on this. Possibly, however, we are not as far apart in interpreting this terminology. I agree, the way I see it there are most certainly objective realities out there. The reason the term had appealed to me is that I believe as human beings it is extremely difficult to be truly "objective", as everything is filtered first by who we are. I find it very interesting that these aspects become so apparent in scientific work as well, where no matter how professional and methodical someone tries to be very often we do see that scientists do bring a bias to their work, that distorts whatever "objective reality" they are trying to investigate through their subjective lenses. As for the 72 -- hm, I guess what's difficult for me is that I would like to trace back how this number originated to its position of prominence in so many traditions, and what underlying "objective reality" there is that made people recognize this phenomenon. At times mysteries and their neverending veils and riddles truly drive me nuts. Anyway, thanks for the input. I hope one day it will start to make more sense to me. -- @FraterUFA Again, thank you for taking the time for a more in-depth commentary. I agree, it could be wise to view these traditions as parallel and mutually exclusive as to avoid confusion. My study started out predominantly in the Eastern mysteries, and then it appeared to me that Western Alchemical traditions (and others) could be talking about the exact same thing -- especially, for instance, in terms of internal cultivation, Daoist Neigong and the philosophy of lead-into-gold, the Philosopher's Stone etc. Even if this assumption were not plainly wrong and there are indeed a few similarities, I do see how deciding exclusively for one mystery tradition has its advantages. The fact that mystery traditions love cyphering their wisdom so that non-initiates will be unable to attain it seems that we do not need the additional confusion of even more traditions with even more veils and metaphors and symbolisms to block us from insight. The reason I see it as a blessing is that I fundamentally do not like when information is controlled via one institution, as this might just put -- as it has more than once throughout history -- these guardians of information in an undue position of power over others. Secondly, I see this availability of information from other cultures as a great benefit as the West, both in terms of economic reasoning as well as their scientific world-view seems to have adopted a very much mechanistic and quantitative view, and often all too easily ridicules notions outside of its own scope of comprehension, while the Eastern traditions (that's a blanket statement, I am aware) overall seem to allow for a more energetic and qualitative reasoning and view of the world. I have been raised mostly against a protestant christian backdrop and along those lines I had never felt to have truly had access to an authentic spirituality. Hence for me it was a great benefit to seek and find Buddhist and Daoist literature in order to find my own entry to spirituality. In many way it seems that now, via this detour, I am understanding Christianity much better than before. I personally do not think of this in terms of a person, no matter how interesting that proposition is you are making. The way you are framing the argument here is the make it seem that some Satan (opposer) is well aware of "the truth" but deliberately pulls a fruit-of-the-tree-of-knowledge kind of number on us in order to confuse us and lead us astray. But I suggest that this quite depends on the reason why one wants to uncover the mysteries. Is it for power and self-serving? Or is it because some of us share a feeling that there is more to life and we want to learn our true place in this world? I can well see how people will flock to the occult in hopes to attain magical power to dominate others and fulfill all their desires. Well, I find that the more I strive to learn and understand the occult, there more it humbles me and puts everything in perspective. Can you tell me how you know they are mutually exclusive? I have come across someone's research who had tracked back the importance of the numbers 7 and 14 to the Egyptian mystery traditions and claims to have found that the Egyptians believed there were 7 invisible forces (each with two polarities) that were affecting human beings. Which is simply a notion that seems to have appeared time and again, when for instance learning of the Daoist 7 corporeal souls, the 7 deadly sins, the 7 adventures of Sinbad etc. I haven't had the time to have a look at it, but supposedly the Book of Bahir is another source that claims to underline the import and meaning of the number 7. What is my motivation? I want to understand. I believe that wisdom traditions are man's attempt to ever pass on what they have learned and acquired during their lifetimes to be true of the world around them. Can I fully explain my motivation for that? Probably not, as for all I can tell it has always been with me, from childhood on. But to the best of my ability I would say it is about the feeling that there is more to this world and this life and I want to try my best to find answers and truth. +++ will expand later, gotta go +++

@noonespecial Thank you for your comment. This Apocalypse of James sounds riveting. I can see that the number 72 is another one of those (an octave of the 144, no less) numbers, that pop up time and again in spiritual and mystic literature. I can accept that the consensus seems that there are 72, say, "degrees" or "distinct energies" -- but I am not much closer in understanding them or what to do with that knowledge. If you have a more profound understanding of this already, may I ask you: What are these 12 archons, and do they bear a relation to the 24 elders mentioned in Revelations? These 72 heavens, to your understanding, do they share a relation with the "72 names of God"? What is your practical way of incorporation the knowledge of the 72 heavens in your meditation practice and spiritual life? At any rate, thank you. A great pointer. -- @FraterUFA Thank you for checking back. Noonespecial has, in the course of this thread, enriched me with Joseph Lisewski's term, "subjective synthesis", that I would like to rephrase here as "subjective syncretism". You are correct that this is how and when the Western culture has familiarized itself with these concept. Another way of phrasing it, however, would be to say that "the concept of Chakras" has been around for thousands of years in the Eastern cultures. It is both a blessing and a confusion that today we are able to have a look at all these various, sometimes mutually exclusive, sometimes outright conflicting traditions. Nonetheless, I do strongly believe that "subjective synthesis" is all we have, here. These are knowledge traditions that we are well advised to approach with an open mind and reflect it against our understanding and intuition to see what... well, "synthesizes". My observation had been a very basic one: That the seven deadly sins of the Catholic Church correspond exactly with the character ascribed to the Daoist "seven corporeal souls". The teaching behind these souls I found to be even more striking and meaningful: (I will repeat this from memory, it may not be entirely correct), in Daoism the human body is inhabited by seven corporeal souls (the "po") which have been given to the body by the earth and after death will return to earth, and additionally three celestial souls (the "hun"), which have been given to the body by heaven and after death will return to heaven. The corporeal souls are said to desire to return to earth even before death and thus try to influence a human being toward behavior that will quite literally kill him -- such as greed, lustful indulgence, anger, etc. As the character ascribed to the seven chakras (that I am aware of) reflects very well against my personal subjective syncretism, well, I chose to consider it as meaningful. Agreed. To my understanding the attainment of unity with God, which would seem the ultimate goal of all cultivation practice, is a stage that is far beyond corporeal existence. Hence, it appears quite coherent that many traditions seem to teach "immortality" -- while not quite always inferring a "physical" or "corporeal" immortality; rather, the ability to transcend the death of the body as consciousness and pass on into the spirit world. Agreed. About "ascension". Well, this term has been grossly abused in recent years, yes. This was not how I was intending to use the term, really. I mean ascending, as in cultivating one's sensation (and ethical substance) from gross to fine. I believe that all cultivation entails an increase of sensitivity. For instance, when first learning to play the guitar, many have a hard time tuning the strings, because their ears are not trained to distinguish the very fine differences in frequency. With time, practice and re-fine-ment, tuning becomes easy. Similary, when first learning to measure a patient's pulse, freshmen nurses often have a hard time even finding the pulse, let alone feeling a very weak pulse. With experience and "cultivation" of this sensitivity, they will be able to measure even a a very shallow pulse. These are two examples that I just came up with off the top of my head, and I sure there are better examples out there. But yes, I do believe that this distinction between a gross and a fine matter, energy and consciousness makes sense. In terms of consciousness, though, it may be a matter of becoming more and more aware of one's own consciousness and increasing one's awareness of the ever more subtle instincts, desires and urges that are intruding upon it. I am not in any way married to the idea of chakras. Literature seems to indicate that the chakras could correspond to distinct glands in the body (testicles, adrenal, pancreas, thymus, thyroid, pituitary and pineal), each with a very specific function, and each, according to my subjective synthesis, easily interpretable against the concept of a spectrum from worldly to spiritual. What would happen if chakras didn't exist? In the body? -- For me, nothing. I can appreciate the road map that they imply of dealing with sexual urges, emotions, the ego, love, communication, mental and spiritual faculties. Whether they are actually located in the body, hm, hasn't been an issue for me thus far. However, in terms of their stacking up and the direction implied (again, from gross to fine), the notion corresponds very well with the Western idea of speaking of something that is low or base and high or refined, as well as the Daoist concept of the three dantiens. What do you mean by "transcendence"? Transcendence in terms of attaining sovereignty over the basic drives of nature, cultivating the ability to be unstirred by sexual triggers, emotional turmoil, ego identification, and other attachments. Transcendence in terms of identifying fully with consciousness hosted in the physical body but not identical with the body and its urges. Hence, transcendence as the realization of one's true essence as being consciousness. I want to note here that my synthesis of these ideas is ongoing, it is a process and nothing necessarily has hardened into dogma for me yet. The ultimate goal of the Daoist and Hindu traditions seem to be to overcome all worldly attachment and the need to be reborn, thus attaining a spiritual immortality, and ultimately returning to the union with God. Well. I am personally not quite as lofty. I am currently "laying the foundation", as it's called. Then we'll see where to go from there... About the VITRIOL image. I have come across the "Visita Interiora Terrae Rectificando Invenies Occultum Lapidem" before, and I read it in terms of Internal, not physical, Alchemy. The attainment of the "philosopher's stone" as the attainment of one's original potential by the integration of all one's latent faculties. Attaining liberation through detachment. I see the union of opposites, fire and water, masculine and feminie (Sun and Moon), the trinity of Body, Mind and Spirit, and a wildly strange cartoon of a newborn human, a unicorn, two birds, a crow and death. Huh. As for the "SMTWTFS" I only have a very basic observation to offer, Sun-day, Mon- (Moon) day, Tues- (Tyr, Mars?) day, Wednes- (Mercury?) day, Thurs- (Thor, Jupiter?) day, Fri- (Freya, Venus?) day, Satur - (Saturn) day. I can see that like you said, the numeric value of the planets does not accord to their sequence in a week. The sequence (in terms of numercials) would appear to be 1, 4, 7, 3, 6, 2, 5. Hm. As you can see, unfortunately I do not seem able to grasp a better understanding of the meaning of the weekly cycle yet. Any pointers, if you will, are very welcome.

Thank you all for your responses. I have meanwhile been travelling and not had much time for further studies. On the upside, A.T. Mann's book has arrived, and it promises to be a very inspiring read. -- @FraterUFA Thank you, I appreciate your responses. I like this bit, and I think there is much truth to it. What had surprised me earlier was that you had seemed to ridicule the concept of chakras, as they seem, to me, to blend right in with what was being said. To my understanding the Kabbala speaks of a "fall of man", and his task to ascend back to a unity with God. In the kabbalistic teaching, this task is mapped on the Tree of Life; the Tarot also seems to indicate a similar path of growth or ascension; as does Daoist teaching (via the transmutation of Jing to Qi, Shen, Wuji and the Dao). I am not implying that these traditions all talk uniformly about the same thing. What I do see, however, is a direction from a current state that is associated with being gross, materialistic, individuated and low, to a future (and original) state that is pure, finer, higher, more subtle, all-encompassing and united. (And as you seemed quite opposed to my mentioning that chakras, to me this is exactly in tune with the previous notion: Leading from the base to the crown, from the instinctual and material, to the inspired and transcendent). Hence, when you say the days of the week could mark "a series of steps to be followed", I can somewhat interpret this against my understanding of this task of self-cultivation towards transcendence -- which still means, though, I do not understand exactly what you mean by that. Are the days of the week reminders to repeat this structure of the path to our subconscious minds (somewhat akin to the deeply engrained structure of "The Hero's Journey" in mythology and storytelling), or do the days of the week have a distinct and practical function that we must adhere to on these particular days of the week? My observation is that everything in our experience seems cyclical. The sun, for instance, as perceived from the earth, manifests cycically in terms of day and night, in terms of the solar year; but even when not perceived from the vantage point of the earth, the sun seems to have a pulse of sorts, solar minimums and maximums -- another instance of cyclical manifestation of influence. The moon does so very similarly; hence it seems not far fetched to suppose that the other planetary bodies, even if we conceive of them as entities or consciousnesses, would effect an influence upon us associated with their relative motion to us and possibly inherently through a sort of "pulse" or "biorhythm" of their own. My real question, however, can easily be tied to the previous reflection of the "days of the week". When we profess that each day of the week is associated with a particular planetary body, my question is whether this implies a practical weekly cycle (and I am also reminded here of the seven days of creation), e.g. distinct things we ought to do on these days, or whether their function is more abstract, e.g. familiarizing us with the structure of the path? -- @Nungali Thank you for checking back. Number systems are very intriguing to me. I have, for instance, sunk my teeth into the question why a circle is commonly divided into 360 degrees (which also seems quite arbitrary; and there are indeed other geometrical systems with, for instance, 400 degrees to a full circle). The 360 seems quite arbitrary, but then also, it seems quite close to the 365 days of the year. There is an hypothesis out there, that the earth used to revolve in 360 days a long time ago, and that the division of the circle could be a remnant of that age. This sounds very appealing and would make a lot of sense, as 360 indeed is a great number to unifiy such numbers of recurring importance as 3, 4, 12, 40, 144, and 216. As for the seven days of the week, well, I see a very distinct approximation of the four most prominent phases of the waxing and waning of the moon with seven days to a week. But I agree, all we can definitively say is that 7 is a very prominent number in traditions throughout the world, and how the original division into a seven day week came about is probably another very deep rabbit hole. And thank you for expanding of the Cube of Space. This also goes to @FraterUFA: Thank you for the book recommendation.

In my last post I wrote Absolutely, I am aware that questioning and testing one's beliefs, tracking them to their roots and sources, is indispensible and a very much worth-while endeavor. What I meant to say, though, was very much profane: I cannot address every instance of where this applies within the means of a forum discussion -- simply due to time constraints. @sasblamthanb Thank you. This was some clarifying and interesting stuff. I love the diagrams on the link and am currently waiting for one of the books you had recommended earlier. Hope this will bring some more insight / inspiration. About the solar system: Taken in stride with what FraterUFA contributed to the discussion, it is a very intriguing thought indeed to conceptualize the sun and each planet as distinct higher dimensional consciousnesses -- and consider them, quite possibly, as facets of one grand being or organism. All of this seems very much convincing to me; assuming a fractal or holographic nature to our reality which would liken the solar system to the chakra system in the human body (or possibly other correspondences such as organs, glands, etc.) to the structure of atoms. -- @FraterUFA Thank you for your very valuable response. Astrology is by all means not my primary focus; it is actually probably the field that I am least knowledgeable in and have up to now only taken in stride with the topics I was really researching at the time. Just like I said, almost everything I research sooner or later seems to reference, at least to some degree, astrology, which is why I asked the community here for a few primers. All of these, so far, I find very fruitful. Not taken as a slight. Food for thought. Well, this possibility is one very frequently described throughout the literature I have studied. I have become fascinated with the concept of the daemon / genius a few years ago -- with a very good used-to-be-free ebook by Matt Cardin, http://www.teemingbrain.com/2012/05/02/the-secret-to-working-with-a-daemonic-muse-get-out-of-the-way/. The basic concept, as traced back to antique thinkers, is that our creativity is not our own but rather in-spired (spirited) by a genius (genie, jinn), hence a discarnate intelligence. A riveting concept, and with profound implications. From such a vantage point it is, of course, not far flung to accept that there are varieties of such entities, potentially, as you expound, with cosmic dimensions (or rather an omnipresence -- with an essence transcending our physical realms). (emphasis added by me) Sadly, this feels very much true. We are dealing with arcana, and how to unlock them seems the greatest mystery of the mysteries. I have often thought that maybe vagueness and bewildering symbolism -- and even so if there actually weren't any other underlying secret to it all -- could be in an of itself the arcanum: To trigger our subconscious minds, our intuition and our quest for self-knowledge. Your quote also reminds me of the (sad but) hilarious thing you had written earlier, to the effect of: "As an author of books I can assure you that most of what is written in books is simply not true." One of the difficulties I see in discussing the metaphysical is that due to its nature being transcendent to our physicality, our perceptible reality, often when we resort to (physical) analogies or metaphor in order to comprehend these concepts we are already making the grave mistake of, in a way, reducing that which is to something lower, something we can experience and (haptically speaking) "grasp". Hence the need for analogy, parabel, metaphor, symbolism etc., hence the need for interpretation... which can often be misleading. And all of this holds true even if one is good natured and well-intended! Much worse, then, of course, if some groups or individuals deliberately mislead people. (...) Would love to ask you to expand, if you will: By "forces which will go to extreme lengths to bury and corrupt these teachings" are you implying discarnate beings or something more in terms of political factions? And as for "the days of the week (...) bear witness to a greater truth", I would appreciate if you are willing to extrapolate this further. To my understanding the days of the week and the ancient order of the planets seem more or less to correspond in this given progression to the ascending order of the chakras (and the characteristics ascribed to them) in the human body. This would lead me to conclude that the days of the week, when related to distinct planets, point to a weekly cycle, akin, maybe, to a biorhythm of sorts. I understanding this forum is not the right place (if ever there is a "right place") to spell out arcane understandings. If you see fit, however, I would appreciate further comment. Thank you very much, this is greatly appreciated. In my recent studies I have come to notice that not only do the numbers 7 and 14 seem to be given great significance in the Bible, the doctrine of the "seven deadly sins" also seems to match stunningly well with the characteristics ascribed to the "seven corporeal ghosts" in Daoism. As I have stated before, I have for a few months established and refined a personal practice revolving around an understanding where I conceptualize these "seven deadly sins" or "corporeal ghosts" as external forces, much akin to the daemon or jinn concept. What I simply do not grasp so far is why these would correspond to, for instance, days of the week (which seems to be outlined in the writings of, for another instance, Eliphas Levi). Also, if you are willing to comment, can you share your understanding and personal experience of whether these seven governours of the world manifest their influence cyclically or continuously? -- @Nungali Thank you for checking back. The whole Cube of Space thing distinctly reminds me of Walter Russell's cosmology, which is also basically cube-shaped, involving the three axis (front-back, left-right, up-down, and a center point.) or three pairs of opposites. I believe it is no coincidence that in language each of these directions bears distinct connotations: Up (ascension, positive, development, evolution), down (depression, sadness, heaviness, devolution), left and right (right and wrong, political factions) etc. In a similar manner I understand that through simple observation of the skies you would get a sense of distinct directions: The direction where the sun rises, where it reaches its highest point, where it sets... and that darn direction where the sun never goes. Hence, it appeals to me to consider that the East would bear connotations of hope, new beginnings, spring, rising etc., the South of bloom, summer, fullness, sovereignty, etc., the West of ending, harvest, decline etc. What I have been wondering is precisely what Frater UFA had also asked me, whether I seriously believed it: In many instances I have come across writings that say one should invoke (the deities of) the four directions. What does this mean in practice? Can anyone help me toward a better understanding of this? What else is there to this Cube of Space concept? What is a resource or book you can recommend for looking into this? -- Thank you all for your contributions. (repeatedly edited for spelling)

@Michael Sternbach Thank you for chiming in. Roger Penrose's Conformal Cyclic Cosmology sounds like a very intriguing concept. Although I must say I personally am not convinced of the Bang part of the theory; meaning, I do believe the universe expands and contracts cyclically but a revolving donut-shaped model of the universe appears more probable to me than a contraction to and explosion from one point. And while I am not sure I understand how gravity waves can conserve information I do like the quasi karmic concept this implies. If indeed our existence is a means to experience, then such a retention of information from one cycle to the next appears a must. Haha, indeed. This is also at least partly due to the volume of dense reponses, which, if you want to follow up on them with any seriousness, would already keep you busy for weeks. -- @Frater UFA Thank you for your elaborate and very thought provoking response. Well, research into the mysteries has to start somewhere and for me it started (and ever again starts) from a place of intuition -- that there is more to life and our experience of it than our quantized, observable, mechanical, physical reality. This intuition leads me to seek out topics of interest, which I do approach as open mindedly as possible. But what degree of objectivity is really possible? As this intuition that drives me is in and of itself already some kind of bias, driven by predominantly non-conscious motives (such as e.g. a latent fear of death) my quest will be equally informed by a latent confirmation bias, I suppose: I am in part a skeptic and probing these theories and accounts and concepts for probability, and partly a seeker, who wants to find proof (or at least circumstantial accounts) that, yes, indeed, there IS more to life. What does strike me is that so many cultures (for instance Egyptian, Jewish, Christian, Daoist etc) seem to abide to a metaphysical understanding that contains similar elements. This is either because this metaphysical reality is true and observable or could be because these traditions all trace back to the same roots (as for instance the Abrahamic traditions) or crossed paths at some point. And as for the injection, but what if it wasn't true?, I only feel confident to respond that I trust that wisdom traditions that have been around for millenia in many cultures around the world must have something to them, some merit, some inherent quality, for otherwise people would just have lost interest and burned and buried it all -- much less have bothered writing voluminous books about it. I am much inclined to adopt thinking about it like that. What seems to contradict this understanding is that much ado is being made about when planetary bodies are in distinct signs of the zodiac, that many traditions segment the days of the weeks and the hours (or two-hour periods) of a day in order to distinguish distinct kinds of energies. If we are dealing with living consciousnesses and their directions were altogether not important, then their influences should be omni-present. Why then this intricate system of days, hours, etc? As for the four directions this is again something that seems to pop up in various cultures. I have read Daoist meditations on the distinct qualities of the North, South, East and West, and this of course seems to blend quite well with the bull, eagle, lion and man, magical traditions that advise to "invoke the spirits of the four directions" etc. My question about this was not infering that I know better, it was actually an open question. I have observed this phenomenon mentioned time and again, and wanted to consult with the community here, what your understanding of "four directions" is. The reason I am asking questions is precisely because I do not know, hence I do not know what to believe. Do I have reason to believe x? Well, insofar as many traditions seem to make a point of e.g. distinct directions, distinct constellations, distinct time frames etc. The fact that I am testing these assumptions signifies to me that these are indeed not things I believe. They appear to me more like hypothesis. As facets of this same rhetoric, why do you believe x, seem to be recurring, I cannot address every instance of it in detail. So I would like to state this in more general terms: I am not tethered to believing either, "astrology must be a physical phenomenon distinctly associated with directions" or "astrology is a metaphysical phenomenon that cannot be grasped in terms of a three- (or even four-) dimensional model of the world". I see that some emphasis on astrology seems to be placed in various traditions, which prompts me to investigate and ask questions. Insofar I would say I do not believe either or, and I would welcome you to share with me what you believe. That's the beauty of higher dimensions: They do not violate physical laws, they are actually in accordance with the laws of physics and they are logically sound. Examining the idea of higher dimensions is wonderful, as it also instructs us just why it is near impossible to observe higher dimensional realities from a lower dimensional plane. -- @Nungali Thank you, I will look into this. And about the angular relationships, this is definitely something I have come across before. The waxing and waning of the moon is actually nothing other than an easily visible such revolving angular relationship to the sun as observed from the earth; the tides are an effect of this; the day and night cycle is probably the most prominent such revolving angular relationship between the earth and the sun. What I want to explore is inhowfar these angular relationships extend from that which is physically observable to what we can subjectively experience metaphysically (especially for the physically more minute effects with other planetary bodies). Thank you for all the links and examples. -- @Zhongyongdaoist Many thanks for the marvelous quotes. The general idea seems to be encapsuled in the catchy axioms "that which is above is like to that which is below" or the biblical "seek ye first the kingdom of God", would you say so? What I do wonder, if you may, can you share how you incorporate such wisdom in your practice? I have experimented, for instance, for the last couple of months, with a practice I have devised of my own of centering in stillness in my heart and identifying whenever one of the forces that could be called the "seven deadly sins" in the christian canon or the "corporeal souls" in Daoism even minutely distort my inner peace, then simply identify this force and let it go. Can you share how these insights you have mentioned reflect in your practice? Also, many thanks for the Gödel anecdote. That is very riveting indeed. What I find very interesting -- and I am not judging, just taking note here -- is that by way of my questioning I seem to give off a very distinct notion of who I am; and what seems reflected back to me by most responses is that I am a still very much materialist skeptic... which is interestingly not much how I think of myself. Curious indeed. -- @noonespecial Thank you for chiming in. Wouldn't consciousness imply character? As in: subject to change, moods, growth, etc. The reason I do not see this point of view is that to me gravity, magnetism and the likes seem very much constant, unalterable principles. Inhowfar would you say these are consciousnesses? What does that mean? -- +++out of time; will have to continue some other time.+++

@Nungali Thank you for your responses. Here is what particularily impressed me about the examples you have offered: That animals seem to be very much in tune with these natural cycles AND that this harmony can just as easily be disturbed or overwritten by artificial human cycles. The prominent example was how cows cud at distinct times relative to the lunar calender but how milking processes can upset this natural rhythm. Very interesting indeed. I also appreciate the knowledge you are offering about all these lunar cycles, and thank you for following up on the lunar nodes. Another amateur question in this regard: I do have a lunar calender app on my phone but it only shows the moon phases in terms of waxing and waning. How do you (if you do), personally and practically, keep track of ascension and descension, opposition to Saturn, the node points etc.? Is this something you can observe yourself with enough practice or do you need applications for that? -- One last note I would like to make: I enjoy this Integra Naturae image you have posted. It reminds me of classes in school when we learned -- with not much depth or consideration -- how the ancients viewed the world. The way I remember those classes was with almost a belittling undertone as if saying, "isn't it cute what these ancient cultures believed, they thought the earth was at the center and that the moon, sun, planets and stars revolved in distinct tracks around it. How naiv." What I am thinking right now is: What if illustrations such as the one you posted, or this one... ...were never meant to be physical models of our universe but rather schematic illustrations to demonstrate the magnitudes of influence each of the celestial bodies exude upon human experience? In other words: What if it was not the bygone thinkers that had been naive -- but we are being the naive ones in thinking we understanding the depth of meaning of their illustrations?! Great food for thought, all that. Thank you!

@Zhongyongdaoist I greatly appreciate your input, precisely for the reason that it is well over my head. I am not versed in scholarly philosophical exploration, which it seems you very much are. Therefore many of the phrases, terms and concepts you are refering to I am not familiar with. For instance, I just had to look up the "causa formalis", just so you know who you are conversing with... Equally with your last post I am not certain whether all of the questions were indeed rhetorical, and if they were indeed, please ignore what I am about to write. I will take them as an invitation here to reflect and respond. I like what you have to say about cosmology, as I believe it is easy for one to overlook or unconsciously take for granted the most basic, most foundational assumptions made — through nurture, culture and education — about the nature of our reality. This is certainly true for me, and I can see how my desire to understand astrology is intimately tied to the fact that I am seeking to define a cosmology that appears intrinsically convincing to me. Interestingly, it was my very observation that western rationalism seems to perfectly account for materialism and mechanics but to exclude energetic realities that originally drove me to investigate Eastern concepts. So to respond to the first of your possibly rhetorical questions: Do you know what a “force”, universal or otherwise, is? Again, here, I know there are definitions in terms of natural physics that I could reproduce here and surely there are philosophical definitions I could familiarize myself with. But also in order to stand by my current level of understanding I will answer this in my own words. A force is a potential that is defined by its degree of removal from equilibrium. What happens if you view gravity as a formal cause that organizes information? First off, to be frank, I am not versed enough with these terms to claim that I properly understand the question. That being said, and in my own words again, the view of gravity as a formal cause that organizes information feels appealing yet not exactly intuitive or comprehensive to me right away. If gravity indeed were a formal cause that organizes my first instinct would be to ask: organize to what end? to what purpose? My second instinct would be to try and clarify what "information" is taken to mean here, as "in-formation" seems to imply in itself an organizing force; which again would prompt me to ask: what is the difference, then, between "gravity" and "in-formation"? I am pretty sure I am not understanding what you were trying to lead me to see. If you can find the time, please do clarify. Thank you.

@Michael Sternbach Thank you, I greatly appreciate your input and the links. Will take a while. -- @Nungali I am humbled by the information you have just posted. Thank you. I have to admit I have only ever thought of the "moon cycles" as the waxing and waning phases aka degrees of surface illumination by the sun. The perigee and apogee cycle as well as the moon's ascension and descension I have never made myself consciously aware of but I can totally see how this would be highly significant. As for the oppositions (and alignments, I suppose) with Saturn, when I reflect this against my current level of comprehension I can equally fit it into my quasi-physical model: How heavenly bodies exert a distinct qualitative influence (that I would somewhat liken to a gravitational pull), and how these influences amplify or dampen each other depending on their angles of alignment. A similar mechanism I assume to be true for the directions of the celestial dome (aka signs of the Zodiac). What I missed is what the moon's "nodes" are? Can you elaborate on that? Anyway, I just meant to say, the examples given in the pdf (of gardening and cow cudding) are very illuminating. Thank you.

Wow, thank all of you very very much. These are fantastic pointers for further research. @Zhongyongdaoist aka Donald I understand you do not have much time right now. I just wanted to say I loved your very elaborate post and wanted to follow up on two questions in particular: I liked your comment about how astrology works regardless of whether one believes in it or not. This is actually very close to my understanding of what it should be like if we are indeed talking about natural universal forces, i.e. gravity doesn't care whether you believe in it or not. Can you elaborate on what you mean by that statement, though? When you say "astrology works" what has been your experience with it, and how to you practice astrology or as what kind of a tool do you use it (I would guess character assessment, horoscoping, anticipating cyclical changes etc.)? I guess I still have a hard time grasping the concept of how astrology works in our lives. So, is it possible for you to give examples of how astrology (or the knowledge thereof) has worked for you? Btw. I do appreciate your "babel fish" warning. This is actually my viewpoint as well: I believe that through both comparative studies AND open minded full immersion into individual systems I can gain the deepest learning and understanding. -- @sasblamthanb Thank you, this guy sounds like a great source of info indeed. The Wiki says his work is based around the concept of a "logarithmic time scale" and, as you say, developmental archetpyes. Could that be similar to Joseph Campbell's work about how myths and story structure mimic stages of human development? Or is it more centered on cosmology and earth history than individual human lives? What is your grasp of these concepts? Thank you for the book titles anyway, they sound very intriguing. -- @Nungali Thank you for your very elaborate response, it is much appreciated. The difficulty in exploring astrology, in my opinion, is indeed that when one first sets out on this quest it is a very difficult area to understand because somehow one thinks the term "astrology" refers to one thing when in fact it unites so many dozens of viewpoints and philosophies and intellectual constructs. For instance, the concepts presented in, I believe, the "Key of Solomon" -- with its 72 angels and invoking the four directions, its changing rulers during the hours of the day and days of the week etc. -- would lead one to picture astrology as an intricate system representative of cosmological forces that can be summoned and employed for distinct means. This of course is a radically different understanding from saying that the ancients, for instance, may have coded distinct events of their culture to the current constellations (of the great year, precession of the equinoxes) with myths spun around them. I think I can best sum up my personal "understanding" (as of this moment) like this -- I had read somewhere that the chinese Trigrams originally coded the day, lunar month and solar year, and this made a lot of sense to me as these three are the most immediate natural cycles we, as human beings, are experiencing: And it is much like Donald had said -- it doesn't matter whether or not you believe in the power of these cycles, they very much WILL work exactly like they do and have a very real influence. The sun will rise every morning, like clockwork, the sky will be bright, then the sun will go down again and it will be dark. The moon IS GOING TO go through its waxing and waning like clockwork, the seasons of the solar year will follow one upon the other. I like these three because they are so immediate and easy to grasp, and they do account for the vagueness that I often see in astrological teachings. For instance, we know that the solar year brings The Four Seasons (which I read somewhat like astrological "influences") — so this does not mean that there could not possibly be a hot and sunny day in February or a harsh, cold, even snowy day in June. As all of these progressions of influences (daily, lunar month, solar year etc) can be mapped as cycles nested within one another, it makes a lot of sense to me that other greater or qualitatively different cycles would also exude a distinct influence that ancient civilizations may have found a way to sense and track. Hence the whole concept of astrology -- which appears always to be based on such cyclical layouts -- is indeed convincing to me (despite the fact that I am not really understanding it yet). -- More questions, if anyone feels compelled... For the past few months I have been trying to sensitize myself to the phases of the moon and see if I can feel a qualitative difference in my personal experiences. I find this very hard and confusing, as sometimes I seem to feel certain trends (like introversion at new moons and extroversion at full moons) but then again sometimes it feels waaay off and doesn't seem to make much sense. Is this how any of this works??! "Am I doing it right?" And while the lunar month is a very easily visible cycle to track, how does one go about attuning to "invisible cycles" (to the untrained human eye) such as planetary influences. I would even find saturn or pluto with a telescope, I am sure. In how far are you guys sensible to these influences and what cycles are you aware of or which do you follow? -- At any rate, thank you very much for the resources you have pointed out. A mindful review of all these will keep me busy for quite a while.

I have been practicing Qi Gong and Nei Gong mostly from books and online videos for about two years now. I do feel great benefits of this practice, however, all these benefits are strictly qualitative, internal and subjective. What I would like to find is some way of quantifying my process to see whether I am improving. I remember that in one of Prof. Jerry Alan Johnson's books, he describes a test where students of medical Qi Gong have to change the acidity in a glass of water, and the change of acidity is measured with special paper strips (Litmus paper, is that it?). At any rate, do any of you have any experience with this particular test and how to go about practicing this? What else do you do to measure, gauge and quantify your energetic practice?

Thank you all for these awesome and inspiring replies. I perfectly agree that any form of trying to quantify or measure the efficiency of Qi projection reeks of asking for miracles and could enhance ego identification. I work on this but I am not free of that. The nature and intent of my original question, however, was to discern the quality of energy I am projecting. In Prof. Johnson's book this exactly was the point that had struck me: That some practitioners, and especially beginners, may well project energy -- but sometimes the wrong kind. In other words, they may inadvertantly make people sick instead of healing them because they have no mastery, no distinct and conscious control over the quality of energy they are emitting. That's why I was fascinated with the pH balance example, as it seems to allow you to see whether you are "charging" or "discharging" the water. And this qualitative mastery seemed such an elementary skill to me. -- @ z00se I cannot really further describe the experiment as I have only read it from Prof. Johnson's book and haven't seen or experienced it myself. The setup really seemed to be as simple as setting up a glass of water, measuring its pH value, then having the student emit Qi onto the water (from I believe a foot or so distance, I could look this up if you are interested), with the intention to either increase or decrease the acidity in the water, then measure the results. I love your many suggestions by the way. @ Hundun I appreciate your response very much, especially that you are offering a teacher's perspective. My intention for asking was, like I have mentioned above, much related to learning to master the quality of energy, not the mere quantity, that I am projecting. You are asking some valid questions, one of them being how I come to believe that I am ready for testing — I don't. I haven't actually thought about this in terms of, oh, I have been doing this for so and so long I should be able to ... . This skill seems to me not a milestone "final exam" type of thing but rather a very important and integral learning modality; a basic if not the most fundamental skill: After all, what good is our energy practice if we cannot distinctly control the quality of this energy? @ Spotless Thank you for bringing up the sign posts. I am sure on a subconscious level it works exactly like that on me as well: You read about someone attaining distinct bodily sensations or effects of meditation and you start wondering, when does this happen for me? Like I have just said I am not aware that this would be my intention for testing, my gut tells me this is more about gauging the quality of the energy. But I appreciate any warning of attachments because I do know this is an ongoing challenge for me. -- Thank you all.

Once again, I am sure I didn't find the optimal place to put this question. Nonetheless, I would really love to hear your input on this... I am bothered by an unpleasantry, and it is hyperhidrosis — excessive sweating. Did any of you by any chance find an effective way / meditation / exercises or otherwise practice that helped you gain control of this issue? Thank you for your suggestions! -- (Now, I'll just elaborate a little more if anyone should have an extra second to read the whole wall of text). My problem areas are my armpits. I can put on a clean shirt and not do any activity at all — yet usually within five minutes I will have sweat stains. And while this is bad enough, things get outright horrid once I am actually stressed out or get nervous. It is embarassing. Now I know that sweating is a vital body function. All I am saying is that my sweating seems a lot worse than for anyone else I know, and needless to say it is somewhat gross. I also get a sense that it is, at least to some degree, psychosomatic, which is why I'd suggest that Qi Gong could potentially alleviate my problems. I have tried deep breathing and grounding exercises but so far I didn't see improvements. Just want to briefly mention this: I have been getting terrible headaches all of my life, and they would get bad enough, probably every two to three weeks on average, that I would have to take Aspirin, although I would prefer not to take any pills at all. I started picking up Qi Gong and ever since December of last year (2013) I did not have to take Aspirin any more, which is a record and a radical change for me. I am now able to make the headaches just go away through meditation and movements. I guess it is this very experience that leads me to believe that Qi Gong could help improving my hyperhidrosis problems as well. Again, thank you for your suggestions.

Just a follow up, if someone were to stumble across this having the same problem I did. Thank you all again for your suggestions: My sweating, at least for now, has gotten a lot better! Since I implemented pretty much all of the aforementioned suggestions, of course it is impossible to tell which one is doing the job. I am only guessing but I believe these to be the major ones: 1) I did cut my coffee intake to about 1/3 of what I used to drink (and I think this was a major factor) 2) I increased my Magnesium intake 3) I am focusing on relaxing my lower back, my shoulders and arms, energetically opening the arm pits. As I dislike supplements I opted for eating nuts on a daily basis, so I'm now eating a handful of brazil nuts, almonds, cashews, peanuts, walnuts and some pumpkin seeds — all of which contain magnesium naturally. Now it may be the magnesium itself or some other ingredient of the nuts, but the feeling I have is that they sort of "dry out" my armpits. I still sweat excessively when I do sports, fine, but throughout the rest of the day I sweat considerably less than I used to. Well, if that was it... Wow, that was easy! I just hope this will prove to be effective long-term.

Will cut out coffee as its been suggested so often, but damn — I'll have to pick a good week for that. Thank you for the armpits suggestion. The basic stance I use (I forget what it's called, but it's what Johnson describes in his outline for correct posture) includes this "raw eggs under the armpits" advice. Curiously, since I started this thread I automatically paid more attention to it and tried something very similar to what you described — sort of letting the hands and arms float up just a tiny little bit to create this openness in the armpits. I also tried to have more natural magnesium yesterday (brazil nuts, almonds, pumpkin seeds, bananas) and had a light dinner, and promptly yesterday evening I thought things were a little better. Maybe a perception deception. I'll keep an eye on it. Thank you!

These are all great, thanks. In response to your question, Sloppy, I'd say my fitness level is above average but not perfect; say maybe 75%. This means I do sports six days a week, that would be four HIIT workouts and two lifting sessions, in addition I shoot for daily meditation and beginner's Qi Gong stuff. I do suspect that for myself it's two things, the toxins angle (coffee, green tea, possible food intolerances etc) as well as the psychosomatic angle (neurotic holding patterns, tension etc). Easing off of coffee will definitely be hard, though. Again, thank you for all of those suggestions!

Damnit, I suspected coffee could be behind it. This one will be hard to cut out. As for deodorants, my skin doesn't take well to them so I cannot use any at all. And the "winter wonderland" suggestion... it is just hilarious — but actually sounds convincing. I'll give it a try! Thanks for all of these!

I have read a couple of intriguing anecdotes about Gurdjieff, which lead me to conclude he must have been an accomplished shaman / magician / internal alchemist. Thanks to anonymity I can shameless confess that the most intrigue I felt about an anecdote about Gurdjieff's supposed ability to sexually attract women through a particular breathing pattern. This is my immaturity and attachment to physical sensation speaking, but if anyone can teach me how to do that, I would be very grateful. I think.

I'd like to bring this up again, as I suspect it may be more than "trivial" question. What I would like to know is whether yin and yang aspects of right and left are inherent, absolute qualities or whether this may be considered more of a sort of suggestion, a paradigm, one potential school of how to channel these opposing (e.g. radiant vs. receiving) energies, which then may naturally be different in different schools. I know in his books Prof. Johnson insists that the left side is yang, the right yin. As the question does resurface ever so often, maybe we could find a wording for this question that asks why the understanding of this differentiation is relevant, e.g. in specific healing or medical applications. -- On this note: Thank you, Green Tiger, for revamping the wording of my question. What was important to me was to specify this very comparative aspect, hence both aspects: "How do we maximise our healing ability while also reducing harm?"

You had talked before about how beginning energy healers can sometimes — despite their best intentions — do more harm than good on an ill person, e.g. growing cancerous tumours instead of reducing them. Can you explain what beginning or intermediate students of Qi Gong medicine must practice in order to increase their healing effect vs. harmful effects. What are the most common beginners' mistakes you have encountered in your students?

As an introduction in this section is required before posting anywhere else, I would like to make myself known to you briefly. For the time being I would like to remain anonymous, hence please accept that I only provide a pseudonym, EFS White, here. I am 35 years old, based in Germany. I work in an artistic profession, and came to first study buddhist principles about two years ago. Seeking a way out from chronic depression (of 5+ years) led me to become an avid student of bioenergetics (Alexander Lowen) — about a year ago — and finally Qi Gong about six months ago. Whenever I read up on Taoist ideas, I continue to run into this forum and have thus already drawn a lot of inspiration and understanding from many of you members. Thank you! I am signing up here with a distinct goal in mind: A member of my family has fallen sick, and I would like to seek practical and detailed instruction of what I can do to help. Cannot think of anything else right now. Feel free to ask me if there is something you would like to know. Thank you. Sincerely, EFS