Taoist Texts

It takes one to know one

i was poking fun at this "the form of the heart/mind" . what does it mean? i would add - honest. He did not understand the central concept and admitted it honestly, tip of the hat.

Teri Takehiro is Teri Takehiro did

The Nature of Doaist Meditation by Robert James Coons typo

Why would he want to do that?

By now first thing to do is to ditch both your doctor and your drugs, and to stop looking for magical hand-waving like a new qigong or acupuncture. Yr illness perpetuates itself because your heart is on it, discussing it with yr doctors, anxiously looking for magical powders. What you need to do is to start riding yr body hard and to stop coddling it, then the illness/heart link will break and the body will heal itself. Take up jogging , fasting, doing push-ups. When you go well beyond average man's capacity for these, that will be the day when u will get well.

A NEVER-STABLE WORD: ZHUANGZI'S "ZHIYAN" 卮言 AND 'TIPPING-VESSEL' IRRIGATION Daniel Fried Early China 01/2007; 31:145-170. DOI: 10.2307/23354214 ABSTRACT The zhiyan described in the "Entrusted Words" chapter of the Zhuangzi ("Zhiyan come forth daily, and are harmonized with the heavenly divisions; through this they spread out, and thus years draw to a close") have long aroused debate and confusion among readers, as the word zhi usually refers to a type of wine goblet. Contemporary readers cannot easily obtain clear assistance from traditional commentaries, because the mainstream of Zhuangzi scholarship has been disturbed by Guo Xiang's original notes: "This zhi is [a thing which] tips when full, rights when empty, and does not stay fixed." The questions which arise from this note are two: (1) What sort of goblet could "tip when full, right when empty"? And (2) how would this remarkable behavior on the part of the goblet relate to the original text of the Zhuangzi? Happily, Guo Xiang's gloss is similar to a paragraph from the Xunzi in which Confucius is said to note an "urging vessel" in the hall of Duke Huan of Lu which also "leans when empty, rights [itself] when half-full, and tips over when full." Early strata of material from the later text of the Wenzi also mention this "urging vessel" as a kind of ancient ritual object prone to tipping over. Although a few readers have considered the relationship between Guo Xiang's gloss and the text of the Xunzi, only in the past several decades has there accumulated enough historical data to provide readers with a more comprehensive background for interpretation. Mainland Chinese archaeologists working in the 1950's discovered a "narrow-bottomed jug" (or, "tipping-vessel") which, because its handles were located below the center of gravity, tipped in the fashion described of the "urging vessel" in the classical text. More recently, researchers have returned to this topic in the 1990's, and have discovered that the tipping-vessel since the Neolithic age was used in agriculture as an irrigation device. By simultaneously using the Xunzi, Wenzi, and other texts, as well as modern archaeological conclusions to re-read the Zhuangzi, it is possible to discover that the concept of the zhiyan is well-suited to an agricultural interpretation. In such an interpretive context, it is possible to speculate that the linguistic skepticism Zhuangzi expresses through the term is related to a cyclical temporality associated with the use of tipping-vessels for irrigation. A NEVER-STABLE WORD: ZHUANGZI'S "ZHIYAN" 卮言 AND 'TIPPING-VESSEL' IRRIGATION - ResearchGate. Available from: http://www.researchgate.net/publication/260104686_A_NEVER-STABLE_WORD_ZHUANGZI'S_ZHIYAN__AND_'TIPPING-VESSEL'_IRRIGATION

The term 'spillover goblet words' is twice mentioned in the Zhuangzi, both with reference to the words of Zhuangzi. The accepted understanding of the word 'spillover-goblet', though it is not certain, is that it was a special vessel used in sacrifice. When wine was poured into it, it would automatically spill the contents and then upright itself. One could ever fill it, and it would ever empty itself. This became a metaphor for the use of words as an upaya (skillful means) to convey truth and yet to disallow those words becoming confused with the truth itself. this is nonsense though.

yes there is. it is called fasting. try spending 24 hrs w/o food and as lil water as possible. that will fix ya.

Mike Sigman is great, he is one of the precious few westerners who knows what he is talking about. I did not know he still posts so thanks for the link.

Chia is quite adequate for beginners here, it is 16 US$ on amazon, it is a genuine treasure trove, and it will last you a lifetime Art of the Bedchamber The Chinese Sexual Yoga Classics Including Women's Solo Meditation Texts: The Chinese Sexual Yoga Classics Including Women's Solo Meditation Texts

enjoy;)

Think Confucianism Walker. Is Confucius classical enough for you? 《子張 - Zi Zhang》 衛公孫朝問於子貢曰：「仲尼焉學？」 子貢曰：「文武之道，未墜於地，在人。賢者識其大者，不賢者識其小者，莫不有文武之道焉。夫子焉不學？而亦何常師之有？」 Gong Sun Zhao of Wei asked Zi Gong, saying. "From whom did Confucius get his learning?" Zi Gong replied, "The doctrines of Wen and Wu have not yet fallen to the ground. They are to be found among men. Men of talents and virtue remember the greater principles of them, and others, not possessing such talents and virtue, remember the smaller. Thus, all possess the doctrines of Wen and Wu. Where could our Master go that he should not have an opportunity of learning them? And what necessity was there for him to have a regular teacher?"

Hi;) by all means lets wait for the others to weigh in. I also would be happy to analyze the Chinese in more detail highlighted by you. However these details do not change the message of Zhong's foreword. Would you agree that his message is: 'I have pulled a book from a hole in a rock, had a realization from it completely unassisted, passed the book down the line so the others could do the same'. Yey or nay?

This is all true. It is completely true for the say, Indo-Tibetan tradition where the guru is all powerful dispenser of knowledge. No great and awesome guru - no nothing. Indian tradition is guru-based Which of course deservedly leads the true believers right to Osho's and his ilks' golden RRs. Not quite so in Taoism, though. Here a teacher is a relatively effaced figure of a messenger. The moment he takes the position of an owner of the teaching, is the moment his falsity is disclosed. Look at the example of Zhong Liquan the founder of the mainline alchemical Taoism, (misnamed 'neidan' in vulgar parlance). Not only he did not have a teacher himself, having learned from a heavenly book directly, he also passes his transmission to the next generations in a form of that book. And so it was ever since. The Chinese tradition is scripture-based, as a way to insulate it from the false teachers, who desperately try to squeeze in as unnecessary middlemen. As a small contribution to our vibrant community, below is a very telling excerpts from the text Zhong received from Heavens and passed down to us. Note the self-effacing way he calls himself 'the servant', note also the total absence of the word 'teacher' in his moving account.

Yes it is but is not it preferable to being deceived by the ignorant seminar pushers, who when caught in a lie try to extricate themselves with another on on top of the first one? Present company excluded of course

因于终南山石壁间，获收《灵宝经》三十卷。 Then (I, Zhong), went to Zhongnan mountains, in a crack of a sheer cliff found and took the “Lingbao Scripture’ in 30 scrolls. These guys are way out of their league;)

Thank you I would like to. But , please help me out here. What exactly did they accomplish again?

No they were not Eva Wong added to that misconception by inserting a funny paragraph not extant in the original. Here is what Zhong and Lu really say in conclusion of their lengthy conversation: 吕曰：“今日特蒙事师开说希夷大理、天地玄机。不止于耳目清明而精神秀媚。残躯有托终，不与粪壤同类。然而知之者未必能行，行之者未必能得。念以生死事大而时光迅速，虽知妙理，未得行持，终不成功，与不知无异，敢求指教交会之时，行持之法，如何下手，如何用功？” Lu said: Today, you, the merciful teacher openly explained to me the Great Principle of the Subtle Unseen, the Dark Spring of Heaven and Earth. It has not only purified my eyes and ears but also made my spirit bloom. When my worn out body will come to its end, I will be not of the same sort with dirt. But still, he who knows - not necessarily can, and he who can – will not necessarily achieve. I constantly remember that the affair of life and death is the greatest, that the time runs out fast, and although I now know the mysterious principle, but not knowing how to practice, I will never be able to accomplish, so I am still not different from those who do not know. Dare I ask for your guidance on the timing of copulation, on the method of practice, on how to begin the work, on how to implement it? 钟曰：“仆有《灵宝毕法》凡十卷一十二科。中有六义：一曰金诰、二曰玉书、三曰真元、四曰比喻、五曰真诀、六曰道要。包罗大道，引喻三清。指天地阴阳之升降为范模，将日月精华之往来为法则，实五仙之旨趣，乃三成之规式，当择日授于足下”。 Zhong replied: I, your servant, have a book 《Líng bǎo bì fǎ》 in 10 volumes and 12 chapters. In it there are 6 topics: 1 - golden announcement; 2- jade letters; 3 – the true prime; 4 – code words; 5 – the true secrets; 6 – the requirements for Dao. That book covers the Great Dao, discloses the Three Purities. It shows the model for rise and fall of yin-yang, the laws on comings and goings of the essence, substantiates the directives for 5 kinds of saints, specifies the formulas for the 3 accomplishments. Lets select an auspicious day for me to hand it to you, sir. Or to summarize: Lu: Teacher, you spoke to me whole day and i still dont know how to practice. Zhong: We learn practice from books not from face to face conversations. Here take this book and go learn how to practice from it.

Yes it does. Who says that a person can NOT learn or practice neidan without a teacher? The aforementioned false teachers out of their obvious self-interest, that's who. Them being false means that it is a lie. It being a lie means that the opposite is true. Yes, you can! Its simple logic really.

now that's the voice of reason. But there is more to it. Zhong and Lu tell us that teachers are not the solution, they are the problem "When you are impatient to find a teacher, you will not care whether the teacher is enlightened or not. Impressed by what the teacher claims he can offer and falling prey to his charisma, you believe that you have found a true immortal. Eventually you discover too late that the teacher is a fraud who is after fame and power. Being fooled and controlled by false teachers—this is the sixth obstacle."

all the time lately

The contention arises because the the modern western taoists who use this phrase with gusto do not understand which scriptures are meant here and who exactly are the teachers in this phrase. Which is ironic, given that the scriptures here are the religious ritual manuals and not the neidan texts, and the teachers here are not the modern qigongers posing as taoists but rather the religious taoist priests. In other words this phrase is about the taoist religion something that the western taoists shun quite vehemently yet they use this religious phrase. The irony is quite rich here. Here is how the real Taoists explain this phrase:

without these basics there is no true skill in Dai Family Xinyiquan and trying to skip this period and advance towards combat techniques would lead to nothing. The process of Dantian development is very long and usually takes at least three years before one can proceed to the next step, Even within traditional Xinyi community in Shanxi there are many who practiced hard for long time and still failed to acquire decent Dantian skill. Simple? If you say so.

dear Damdao you gotta be more specific here A sophist or sophister (Greek: σοφιστής, Latin: sophistes) was a specific kind of teacher in both Ancient Greece and in the Roman Empire. Many sophists specialized in using the tools of philosophy and rhetoric, though other sophists taught subjects such as music, athletics, and mathematics. In general, they claimed to teach arete ("excellence" or "virtue," applied to various subject areas), predominantly to young statesmen and nobility. For example, a charioteer, a sculptor or a warrior could be described as sophoi in their occupations. Gradually, however, the word also came to denote general wisdom and especially wisdom about human affairs (for example, in politics, ethics, or household management). This was the meaning ascribed to the Greek Seven Sages of 7th and 6th century BC (like Solon and Thales), and it was the meaning that appeared in the histories of Herodotus. Richard Martin refers to the seven sages as "performers of political poetry."[2] From the word σοφός (sophos) is derived the verb σοφίζω (sophizo), which means "to instruct or make learned," but which in the passive voice means "to become or be wise," or "to be clever or skilled in a thing." The word "sophist" could also be combined with other Greek words to form compounds. Examples include meteorosophist, which roughly translates to "expert in celestial phenomena"; gymnosophist (or "naked sophist," a word used to refer to a sect of Indian philosophers, the Gymnosophists), deipnosophist or "dinner sophist" (as in the title of Athenaeus's Deipnosophistae), and iatrosophist, a type of physician in the later Roman period. So what kind of sophist? I dont teach music. The rest i can teach;)