Taoist Texts

Wishful thinking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wishful_thinking Wishful thinking is the formation of beliefs and making decisions according to what might be pleasing to imagine instead of by appealing to evidence

may be thats the other way around. Could it be that they were not advanced mystically but rather mistycally challenged?

Normally yes, since i am a professional on these matters. pls check these links out for starters http://characters.cultural-china.com/talk22.html http://www.chinese-forums.com/index.php?/topic/36461-how-do-you-calculate-your-age/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Asian_age_reckoning

http://baike.baidu.com/view/326375.htm

Hi Gmp, I was wandering how the plumbing and sewage works at yr place? Thanks

i dont understand this passage. what is its point besides a trivial observation that jeopardising own life is not smart?

this hints at a remarkable literacy ratio for those times. heck for any times

make like a vicar and enjoy it vicariously

of course not bu the whole bit reads to that effect 蓋聞善攝生者，陸行不遇兕虎，入軍不被甲兵；兕無所投其角，虎無所措其爪，兵無所容其刃。 夫何故？why do these bad things above do not happen to them? 以because 其 they 無are not 死地 in deathlands。 sorry about that, i was to terse for my own good;)

Good point. Lets compare editions 《道德經》: 出生入死。生之徒，十有三；死之徒，十有三；人之生，動之死地，十有三。夫何故？以其生，生之厚。蓋聞善攝生者，陸行不遇兕虎，入軍不被甲兵；兕無所投其角，虎無所措其爪，兵無所容其刃。夫何故？以其無死地。 《老子河上公章句·貴生》: 出生入死。生之徒十有三，死之徒死十有三，人之生，動之死地十有三。夫何故，以其求生之厚。蓋以聞善攝生者，路行不遇兕虎，入軍不披甲兵，兕無投其角，虎無所措爪，兵無所容其刃。夫何故，以其無死地。 《馬王堆·老子甲德經》: □生□□□□□□有□□□徒，十有三；而民生生，動皆之死地之十有三。夫何故也？以其生生也。蓋□□執生者，陵行不□矢虎，入軍不被甲兵；矢無所投其角，虎無所昔其蚤，兵無所容□□。□何故也？以其無死地焉。 《馬王堆·老子乙德經》: □生入死。生之□□□□□之徒，十又三；而民生生，僮皆之死地之十有三。□何故也？以其生生。蓋聞善執生者，陵行不辟兕虎，入軍不被兵；革兕無□□□□□□□□其蚤兵□□□□□□□□也？以其無□□□。 so MWD specifically has 而民生生 the commoners that multiply 動皆 all are active (動) in the lands of death 之死地之十有三 and constitute the last 1/3 rd.

sure, as a noun, but its core meaning is 'to go on foot' as per zdic ● 徒 tú ㄊㄨˊ 　1. 步行：～步。～涉。 　2. 空：～手。 　3. 白白地：～然。～劳无益。 　4. 只；仅仅：家～四壁。 　5. 从事学习的人：～弟。～工。学～。师～。 　6. 同一派系或信仰同一宗教的人：信～。教～。党～。 　7. 人（多指坏人）：匪～。暴～。赌～。叛～。 　8. 剥夺犯人自由的刑法：～刑。 so 1/3rd goes from birth onward etc , so TTC makes the same age analysis as the modern graph below

You and me both. These people just lazily substitute chinese words for english ones and call it translating. thirteen messengers here they come

The chinese believe its the inception moment that counts. E.g. what time of day and the year season the embryo is incepted, the birthday not so much.

thats true. to highlight my point that this chapt is about demographics i used percentages (fractions of 100), which the chinese did not have at that time. They used tenths instead. When a a ten had to be split three ways there would always be an odd one, corresponding to a statistical error. Any measurement or a count is always an approximation. The entire population would never be fully accounted for what with robbers, good for nothings, AWOLers and fantasy taoists, thats the remaining 10% for you so TTC is just being realistic here who s that and where are they now?

道德經50 《道德經》: 出生入死。The balance of births and deaths in a state 生之徒，十有三；死之徒，十有三；人之生，動之死地，十有三。On average out of 100% of the population, 30% are just born, 30% are nearing death; and 30% are of productive age. 夫何故？以其生，生之厚。How can the productive age population be multiplied? 蓋聞善攝生者，To enlarge this population stratum 陸行不遇兕虎，入軍不被甲兵；兕無所投其角，虎無所措其爪，兵無所容其刃。 it should be kept safe from wild animals and war. 夫何故？以其無死地。 Or in other words, it should not be placed in the ‘lands of death’. (places of danger). Basically this is about husbanding the population by the king. The best way to do it is to keep it out of danger, then it will multiply on its own. Its that simple. Of course later on this was made to be about some fantasy taoists being good at managing own vitality to the point of becoming impermeable to sharp objects. Right.

The hilarity aside, the meaning of this chapter is long forgotten and can not be reconstructed based on the text and its variations alone. The thing is, this chapter represents a counter argument to what the Confucians were positing at that time: 徐子以告夷子。夷子曰：「儒者之道，古之人『若保赤子』， The disciple Xu informed Yi of these remarks. Yi said, 'Even according to the principles of the learned, we find that the ancients acted towards the people "as if they were watching over an infant." 王曰：「嗚呼！封，有敘時，乃大明服，惟民其敕懋和。若有疾，惟民其畢棄咎。若保赤子， Announcement to the Prince...: The king says, 'Oh! Feng, there must be the orderly regulation (of this matter). When you show a great discrimination, subduing (men's hearts), the people will admonish one another, and strive to be obedient. (Deal firmly yet tenderly with evil), as if it were a disease in your own person, and the people will entirely put away their faults;. (Deal with them) as if you were protecting your own infants 大學: 所謂治國必先齊其家者，其家不可教而能教人者，無之。故君子不出家而成教於國：孝者，所以事君也；弟者，所以事長也；慈者，所以使眾也。《康誥》曰：「如保赤子」， Da Xue: What is meant by "In order rightly to govern the state, it is necessary first to regulate the family," is this: It is not possible for one to teach others, while he cannot teach his own family. Therefore, the ruler, without going beyond his family, completes the lessons for the state. There is filial piety - therewith the sovereign should be served. There is fraternal submission - therewith elders and superiors should be served. There is kindness - therewith the multitude should be treated. In the Announcement to Kang, it is said, "Act as if you were watching over an infant." Etc. http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E8%B5%A4%E5%AD%90 so the argument of the Confucians was that you have deal with the populace as if it was a newborn high-maintenance infant. This was countered by Huang-lao to the tune of ‘ the infant is the most healthy and vibrant creature on the Earth, he is safe on his own’ so likening the populace to an infant means that there is no need to actively manage it or to make it grow up. If the populace ever grows up it will be against Dao and the state will be short-lived. Due to the fragmentary nature of TTC the meaning of the ‘infant’ and its role in the dispute was soon forgotten and the chapter mistaken for some kind of nonsensical self-cultivation advice. Which of course brings us back full circle to the hilarity.

济（济）jì ⒈渡，过河：同船～水。同舟共～。 ⒉帮助，援救：接～。救～。～穷扶贫。 ⒊有利，补益：万民以～。 ⒋成：夫～大事必以人为本。

水之性，不雜則清，莫動則平，鬱閉而不流，亦不能清，天德之象也。 the idea is that your Heavenly virtue is like a stream of water in the nature. Unless somebody or something will put (mix) some dirt in it - its gonna stay clean; unless this stream is disturbed - its gonna stay peaceful and level; and if this stream is blocked then it will become green with aglae (not clear). So all you need to do with your viirtue is not to dirty it and not to force it. Basically do nothing with it;)

hmmm, thanks....sure why the heck not?

yes bits and pieces of it 《文子 - Wenzi》 《文子》 [Also known as: 《通玄真經》] 《上禮》 老子曰：為禮者雕琢人性，矯拂其情，目雖欲之禁以度，心雖樂之節以禮，趣翔周旋，屈節卑拜，肉凝而不食，酒徵而不飲，外束其形，內愁其德，鉗陰陽之和而迫性命之情，故終身為哀人。何則？不本其所以欲，而禁其所欲，不原其所以樂，而防其所樂，是猶圈獸而不塞其垣，禁其野心，決江河之流而壅之以手，故曰：開其兌，濟其事，終身不救。 Lao-zi said: to use ritual to polish people’s nature, to straighten their emotions, means to ban the desire of the eye using propriety, to regulate the joy of the heart with ritual. If it develops it will lead to flattery and false humbleness, it will be like storing meat – and not eating it, like filtering wine – and not drinking it, the body will be bound from outside, the virtue will be stifled on the inside, the harmony of yin and yang will like in pincers and passions of Xing-Ming will be strained, so this will be one ruined person his whole life. How so? Because to forbid him desires and joys it will be like putting a wild beast into a cage with transparent walls, constraining his wild heart would be like stopping the flow of a river with the palm of your heart. That is why (TTC) says: ‘close your senses, stop your affairs, then your entire life there will be no saving you’. and for the good mesure on the same chapter 《淮南子 - Huainanzi》 [Western Han (206 BC - 9)] 《道應訓》 : 齊王后死，王欲置後而未定。使群臣議。薛公欲中王之意，因獻十珥而美其一。旦日，因問美珥之所在。因勸立以為王后。齊王大說，遂尊重薛公。故人主之意欲見於外，則為人臣之所制。故老子曰：「塞其兌，閉其門，終身不勤。」 In the choice of a wife, don't be led away by the senses.—After the death of the queen of Ch‛i, the King desired to choose a queen-consort from the concubines. The matter still pending, he took counsel with the ministerial body. Duke Hsueh, wishing to fall in with the purpose of the King, sent a present of ten ear-rings of which one pair was most beautiful. One morning, later, p. 131 he enquired of the servitors which of the maids had the beautiful pair and advised the king to make her his consort. (He thus wished to curry favour with the king and the new queen). The king of Ch‛i was most delighted and heaped honours on Duke Hsueh. Thus when the master's desires are revealed to the servant, a handle is given the servant to control the master. Just as Lao Tzu says: (Chap. 52.) "PLUG UP THE AVENUE OF THE SENSES; CLOSE UP THE DOOR OF THE DESIRES. THIS WILL STOP THE CARES OF LIFE." http://www.sacred-texts.com/tao/tgl/tgl5.htm

he took it along to study for all eternity.

i donno. Its like saying that there is more than one physics because there are several editions of the same Physics 101.

水之性，不雜則清，莫動則平，鬱閉而不流，亦不能清，天德之象也。 the idea is that every person is endowed with 天德 but becouse it is intangible ZZ uses water as analogy to explain how to develop this 天德.

oh its a fantastic text. without it, to understand TTC you would need to pore over quotations from legists, ZZ, confucians in order to build a frame of reference but Wenzi is like teacher's textbook with all answers to problems provided in the back. In 1973, Chinese archeologists excavated a Han Dynasty tomb near Dingzhou 定州 (or Dingxian 定縣) in Hebei. Its occupant is identified as King Huai 懷王 of Zhongshan (state), who died in 55 BCE. Tomb furnishings included a precious Jade burial suit, jade ornaments, writing tools, and remnants of eight Chinese classic texts, including the Wenzi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenzi In fact, the value of TTC is two-fold A. it is pithy and poetical and B. its incomprehensible (ppl need that). Otherwise if you really really want to know what TTC is about you gotta read Wenzi, of course it is still untranslated.