Taoist Texts

道德經46 《道德經》: 禍莫大於不知足；咎莫大於欲得。故知足之足，常足矣。 《老子河上公章句·儉欲》: 罪莫大於可欲。禍莫大於不知足，咎莫大於欲得。故知足之足，常足。 《郭店·老子甲》: 罪莫厚於甚欲，咎莫僉於欲得，禍莫大乎不知足。知足之為足，此恒足矣。 《馬王堆·老子甲德經》: 罪莫大於可欲；禍莫大於不知足。咎莫憯於欲得。□□□□□恆足矣。 《馬王堆·老子乙德經》: 罪莫大可欲禍□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□□足矣。 《群書治要·德經》: 罪莫大於可欲，禍莫大於不知足，咎莫大於欲得，故知足之足，常足矣。 The idea is that when everything 僉that could have been desired and obtained IS obtained, then there is no other way further but downhill. Therefore: A. that eventuality is the moment of greatest, inevitable danger. B. One should stop before that point of no return is reached, that’s how one knows when to stop – before sufficiency is reached. C. If stopping BEFORE sufficiency (obtaining everything obtainable) is optimal, then it follows that one should be ALWAYS in a stopping mode. (pun: sufficiency=stopping).

The variations of the first char. in diff. copies http://ctext.org/text.pl?node=11610&if=en&show=parallel are 有，所 ， 乎 to me that char. looks a lot more like suo than hu a variation of the above. As to the second char., this being a complicated char. on a meager bamboo slip, the scribe simplified it to the fullest retaining only the 2 base elements and discarding the top completely. Note the retained middle roundel and the supporting vertical strokes.

"If" seems to be the operative word here;)

these 2?

thanks, i do sometimes. its a thing of beauty to see how a bunch of characters decodes itself into a story that is both comprehensible and poetic.

《尋隱者不遇》 松下問童子 言師採藥去 只在此山中 雲深不知處 To gather herbs is the teacher gone Said a lad under the pines Somewhere he is in the mountains yon’ He told me with a sly smile. I gazed at the clouds deep in the sky, Then once more into the lad’s eyes, There was the old teacher young again, Under his new youthful guise.

Of course. Thats what every tyrant says: Its for the benefit of the people!

Thanks Woodcarver. I must be dense but what does that even mean? Whats a tao? Whats the connection beetwing naming and immortality? Why THE tao can not be named? Who says so? And why? What value did this statement add? In short, i dont understand this, seriously.

Perhaps this is germane to the concept of the first line: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_a_white_horse_is_not_a_horse

oh its just one way to look at the story. A stranger comes up to you with a sharp object in hand, asks to look at it and recall anything untoward. The implication could be that he came for you. methinks the poem intentionally leaves that open,no?

For ten years I have been honing this sword, Quoth the strange wandering guest. Look at the frosty edge milord, It had never been put to test. Now think hard and deep my liege, While feeling the blade so cold, Whether the justice is now served, For those whom you have wronged.

really;) and that point would be....?

Technically, yours is a pretty good translation, but...the questions you pose are even better. All translators draw a picture of a totalitarian dark place where rulers take away the playthings from the dumb masses, overlooking the fact that there are two third-person actors in this passage - the people and their rulers. If the rulers take away the shiny toys from the people that would be action and Lao knows better than that. So 'they' 其 refers not to the people but to the rulers themselves. 是以聖人之治，虛其心，實其腹，弱其志，強其骨。常使民無知無欲。使夫知者不敢為也。為無為，則無不治。 "So when the sages govern - they empty their own hearts, fill their own bellies, weaken their own ambitions, sthengthen their own bones. If they conduct themselves like this always, then the people would not know what to desire...Do this non-action and there will be nothing to govern" The Amish;)

Good hunch sir. There was hardly a tomb or a building consecrated without the sacrifice of a dog. At one site, Xiaotong, the bones of a total of 825 human victims, 15 horses, 10 oxen, 18 sheep and 35 dogs were unearthed. Dogs were usually buried wrapped in reed mats and sometimes in lacquer coffins. Small bells with clappers, called ling (鈴) have sometimes been found attached to the necks of dogs or horses. The fact that alone among domestic animals dogs and horses were buried demonstrates the importance of these two animals to ancient Chinese society. It's reflected in an idiom passed down to modern times: "to serve like a dog or a horse." (犬馬之勞). Shang oracle bones mention questions concerning the whereabouts of lost dogs. They also refer to the ning (寧) rite during which a dog was dismembered to placate the four winds or honour the four directions. This sacrifice was carried over into Zhou times. The Er ya records a custom to dismember a dog to "bring the four winds to a halt." (止風). Other ceremonies involving dogs are mentioned in the Zhou li. In the nan (難) sacrifice to drive away pestilience, a dog was dismembered and his remains buried in front of the main gates of the capital. The ba (軷) sacrifice to ward off evil required the Son of Heaven, riding in a jade chariot, to crush a dog under the wheels of his carriage. The characterba gives a clue as to how the ceremony took place. It is written with the radical for chariot (車) and a phonetic element which originally meant an animal whose legs had been bound (发). It was the duty of a specially appointed official to supply a dog of one colour and without blemishes for the sacrifice. The blood of dogs was used for the swearing of covenants between nobles. Towards the late fifth century BC, surrogates began to be used for sacrifice in lieu of real dogs. The Dao De Jing mentions the use of straw dogs as a metaphor: Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw dogs; the sage is ruthless, and treats the people as straw dogs.[3] However, the practice of burying actual dogs by no means died out. One Zhongshan royal mausoleum, for example, included two hunting dogs with gold and silver neck rings. Later, clay figurines of dogs were buried in tombs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogs_in_ancient_China

wow, its like deep, man.

Thats quite likely. If you look in a larger dictionary you will find that 音聲 combo denotes the initial 音 and the final 聲sounds of a chinese syllable.

Yes thats my oversight, of course the original says 有無相生 being and non being birth each other. Good catch.

Heck let me have a go at it too 《老子河上公章句·養身》: Nourishing the body 天下皆知美之為美，斯惡已；皆知善之為善，斯不善已。 If everybody under Heaven deem something beautiful then it becomes ugly (to a discerning observer, because beautiful is something different from vulgar tastes); if everybody recognizes something as good then it must be not that good. (so ugly comes from beautiful, not good comes from previously good) 故有無相生，難易相成，長短相較，高下相傾，音聲相和，前後相隨。 (Similar to the above) being births non-being, hard and easy are two ends of the same, short and long are relative, high and low are parts of whole, the sounds are parts of harmony, before and after are consecutive (If these extremes give rise to each other in nature, then it is best to govern by non-action which will produce action) 是以聖人居無為之事，行不言之教，萬物作而弗治也， 為而不恃，功成而弗居。夫唯弗居，是以不去。 So the sage manages by non-action and teaches not by words but by conduct, (in this way) the things are done without governance, there is action but not the maintenance of it, the work is accomplished without dwelling on it. Because the work (of governing) is not dwelled on – it is never out of control.

There is a long authoritative tradition that supports what Chi Dragon says, so we are conditioned to believe it. But how does it work in practice, if at all? If you put yourself behind how you gonna end up in front being recognised? Something doesnt add.

I will just highlight the parallels and see where it is going 里仁: 子曰：「富與貴是人之所欲也，不以其道得之，不處也；貧與賤是人之所惡也，不以其道得之，不去也。君子去仁，惡乎成名？君子無終食之間違仁，造次必於是，顛沛必於是。」 Li Ren: The Master said, "Riches and honors are what men desire. If it cannot be obtained in the proper way, they should not be held. Poverty and meanness are what men dislike. If it cannot be avoided in the proper way, they should not be avoided. If a superior man abandon virtue, how can he fulfill the requirements of that name? The superior man does not, even for the space of a single meal, act contrary to virtue. In moments of haste, he cleaves to it. In seasons of danger, he cleaves to it." http://ctext.org/analects/li-ren?searchu=%E4%B8%8D%E5%8E%BB&searchmode=showall#n1173

Yes it is. also an example as how most of what is cryptic in TTC is made clear by Confucius.

子曰：「予欲無言。」子貢曰：「子如不言，則小子何述焉？」子曰：「天何言哉？四時行焉，百物生焉，天何言哉？」 Yang Huo: The Master said, "I would prefer not speaking." Zi Gong said, "If you, Master, do not speak, what shall we, your disciples, have to record?" The Master said, "Does Heaven speak? The four seasons pursue their courses, and all things are continually being produced, but does Heaven say anything?" (Legg)

sure. no harm - no foul. Character: 治 Character (單一漢字)English Senses For (英文): zhi4 control / to govern / to manage / to rule / to regulate / to harness (a river) / the seat of the local government / to treat (a disease) / to cure / to study / to research / to punish / peaceful and orderly / a Chinese family name From water 氵水 and phonetic 台. Originally to prevent flooding by water. Now to regulate.

yet understand you will kind sir. 夫 ​ (literary) initial particle which introduces a topic  [quotations ▼]Usage notes[edit]Not used as an independent character in modern Chinese. Only found in compounds. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%A4%AB#Particle