Taoist Texts

i understand that we are well of throdden path here, so for a perspective consider that this could be about a cosmic feng-shui.under great open sky..'regulate the unruly waters and the rest of the cosm will follow suit". Also 治 is not the only ref to controlling waters...不爭 or 有靜 also is. Water is not struggling or is calm only when contained, otherwise it is quite an unruly element , you know.

夫 at the beg. of a sent. is an intro particle.

a stitch in time saves nine;)

Hi DB, just TT will do lets not stand on the ceremony here;) Yes i think thats the original version, now a scattered puzzle between the 4 received versions. The governance of a nation begins from building irrigation and waterways and remains so (recall The United States Army Corps of Engineers (USACE, also sometimes shortened to CoE) is a U.S. federal agency under the Department of Defense and a major Army command made up of some 36,500 civilian and military personnel,[1] making it one of the world's largest public engineering, design, and construction management agencies. Although generally associated with dams, canals and flood protection in the United States...) So the original to me goes something like this: 上善治水。水善利萬物而不爭， 居眾人之所亞， 故幾於道矣。 居善地，心善淵，予善天，言善信，正善治，事善能，動善時。夫唯不爭，故無尤。 The highest governance is that of managing the waterworks. When the water is well managed it is benefitting everything and being subdued – does not contend, then the people should be made to reside (along the borders of it) 所亞, and the nation will be close to Dao. Once the residence is on that land (along the managed water), then the hearts will be good at being deep, the words good with sincerity, the punishments 正 will be good for governance, the affairs will good with possibility (of being done), the actions will be good according to seasons. Only because now (after the waters have been strictly subdued) there is no contention – there will be no fault.

yes, to me control/regulate is the key here. So the story arc of this passage starts with a reference to the governing class 上善, being in charge of public works 治水 historically. Then the arc proceeds into water governance serving as a metaphor for governance in general, and ends in a conclusion on a secret of good governance.

8。 《道德經》: 上善若水。水善利萬物而不爭，處衆人之所惡，故幾於道。居善地，心善淵，與善仁，言善信，正善治，事善能，動善時。夫唯不爭，故無尤。 《老子河上公章句·易性》: 上善若水。水善利萬物而不爭，處眾人之所惡，故幾於道。居善地，心善淵，與善仁，言善信，正善治，事善能，動善時。夫唯不爭，故無尤。 《馬王堆·老子甲道經》: 上善治水。水善利萬物而有靜，居眾之所惡，故幾於道矣。居善地，心善瀟，予善信，正善治，事善能，動善時。夫唯不靜，故無尤。 《馬王堆·老子乙道經》: 上善如水。水善利萬物而有爭，居眾人之所亞，故幾於道矣。居善地，心善淵，予善天，言善信，正善治，事善能，動善時。夫唯不爭，故無尤。 I feel that comparison of different versions is helpful for prying out the intrinsic meaning. I do feel that DDJ is written in a formulaic language, so they key is to decipher the code of its bits like 上善如水 vs 上善治水。

Hey DB, this is a good translation as they go but i do always wonder whats the connection between lines? why are they stringed together in one chapter? why most of them seem trivial like (事善能The goodness of duties is found in ability) or disjointed? i wish translators paid more attention to these issues. But again, a good job.

oh, i am sure he does. Hey Hagar does your stance look like this?

if you put any intent into it , you are overdoing it.

but but..there is no air in space no?

Hey Ex, can you please elaborate on whats wrong with that book?

Yes, all the time.

it basically means that either - a war can start in reality where you live and you cant practice due to the war;OR, you will hallucinate being attacked by armed demons in your meditation, and, being scared, will not be able to contunue practicing.

yes actually two. sesame seed and buckwheat.

But Dao practice doesn't need anything ... But Dao practice ... But Dao ... But ... ...

'sometimes a banana is just a banana'©

问曰：修行人首戒悭吝财物，既曰要世间财，又曰悭吝神仙不肯来，到底用财不用财乎？ Question: the foremost prohibition for a practitioner is to be stingy with money and goods, it is also said that there is a requirement for the worldly wealth, also it is said that the spiritual immortals would not agree to come to the stingy ones, so, at the end of the day, should one use money or should not use money? 答曰：用而不用。夫财者，人之所爱，以财为用，易取人之欢心，易买天之真宝，而天人无不在其术中矣。倘无财而欲得真宝，是强取强求，不但天不我从，而人亦不我顺，便是少行悭吝，神仙怎得而来？此世财之所必用也。然财易足败人德行，伤人性命，一惜其财，则我为财所愚，无不听其财之使用。故必德先财后，以德为本，以财为末，此世财之所不用也。 但此世财，有世间之善财，有世间之凡财，不可不辩。 Answer: use but do not use. The money is what people love, so the money is used both to attract human hearts easily, and to easily buy the true Heavenly gem, so amongst Heaven and the people there is nothing that would not be (obtained) through this skill (of using money). If there is no money used but you still want to obtain the true gem, it will mean forcefully taking and forcefully seeking, and in this case not only Heaven will not condescend to you, but the people also will not be agreeable to you; that will be exactly a case of petty conduct and of stinginess, and how would you obtain for the spiritual immortals to come to you? So the worldly wealth must be certainly used. But with wealth it is easy to harm people’s virtuous conduct, to damage peoples’ xing-ming, so if you are miserly with wealth - then it means that you make a stupid use of wealth, and you never have heard about how the wealth should be used. Thus one must be virtuous first and use money later, make De the root, and make money the branches, and that would be “not using” the worldly wealth. However, in this worldly wealth there is a good wealth and there is a vulgar wealth, so you must differentiate those. (Liu Yi-ming)

You see the traditional schools besides having a sales department also had thought police team. The one that would PROHIBIT! and SEIZE!!!...and PUNISH!!!!

MH you are not claiming to be the Grand Keeper of The Gate and Sole Purveyor of Neidan Authenticum Generalis...yet?

Greetings and salutations Frater. To answer your question: yes and no. You are on the right track because you have found a true manual for practice, it contains all the quidance you need. That said, you are in danger of deviating from the right track barely starting on it unless you put aside your assumptions as to what the book says. There is nothing in there about the pineal gland or seat of consciousnes etc. Read the book, do not read your previous knowledge into it. Follow the book to a t, do what it says you to do. Do not do what it does not. It is as easy (or as hard) as that.

Of course he says that in so many words He is not a lier.

Excellent , excellent! Bears repeating.

Yes, sir, it sure does. Perhaps this quote is a propos: 世之学人方入门户，直视神仙为至易之事，而遂骗化十方，罔知所忌。绝不思一丝一粒俱十方之血汗；一饮一啄皆众生之苦力。或有以口头禅笼人者；或有以假道法摄财者；或有以黄白术谋骗者；千方百计，不可枚数。异日欠下十分债账，不知如何消化。古人谓：“两只角或有或无，一条尾千定万定”者，必此辈欤？ Nowadays, the lay students barely entering the gate of teaching, wrongly regard the spiritual sainthood as a most easy business, and proceed to fool people on all sides (to teach), without observing the proscriptions. Totally unconcerned they are, that every thread of silk and every grain of rice (collected by them as fees) on all sides, is somebody’s sweat and blood; that every bite of their food and every swallow of their drink come from the bitter toil of sentient beings. So, some of them fool people with corny clichés; some use false Dao to grab money; some scheme to cheat people with ‘art of white and yellow’ (artificial gold and silver); thousands of subterfuges and hundreds of tricks, uncountable ploys like that. But on the day when their karmic debt is due for payment in full, they would not know how to honor it. The ancients described them thusly: ‘one or two horns they may or may not have, but they do certainly have a tail behind’, is not this said exactly about this bunch?

Learn a fancy word everyday with GrandmasterP!

Excellent! Of course the texts are for learning, what else? Moreover, in all Chinese traditions texts take vast precedence over oral teaching.