FraterUFA

You must be reading a different book. I would be interested to know exactly what you find in this title that constitutes quality. UFA

So in other words, we shouldn't raise legitimate concerns that might place an author in a negative light, if they aren't here? Is that because you did business with him or because he is a understanding, patient and courteous person? The Amazon reviews of his book (mentioned below) are verifiably manipulated and the publisher denies having done it. I am an author and I'm inclined to believe that no reputable publisher would do this knowing full well they would get caught, so that leaves one likely suspect. I will leave the claims about his PhD to others to unravel. A bit of searching will find you far more information than that which I've described here. No. Lisiewski rejects the AMORC system in his book. I am referring to "Horary Astrology" by C.C. Zain and published by the Church of Light. So on to Lisiewski. He is very confident in his system and makes quite a claim early on using marketing copy that could work equally well for building your real estate empire with no money down. His words: His contributor, Christopher Hyatt says the author discovered this system and as it is included in the book, the author supports that claim: How good is this system? So, we have here a new, unique, virtually foolproof system that anyone could use to harness the forces of the universe in accordance with their will. Such a system would not be easy to find and according to the Foreword, it took the author 33 years to discover it. The system? Planetary hours overlaid with certain paths of the Tree of Life, a "discovery" that could be fully described in a page or two. Lisiewski claims that Agrippa came up with a similar system but that it is too complicated to use for horary purposes. He then proceeds to describe in Chapter 7 a simpler version using equal day & night hours. This same system was laid out by CC Zain nearly a century earlier. Here is the original table. If you follow along, you will see that there is a blind in it (which stands out like a sore thumb to anyone who sees how this table is constructed). With the exception of the blind, this system and all attributions are identical to Lisiewski's. So what we are left with at the end of our read is that the author took 33 years to "discover" a system of horary astrology that is virtually identical to that described in great detail by CC Zain - in the public domain - long before. Lisiewski arguably added the attributions of the Tarot trumps via the Tree of Life to certain of these hours, though that is hardly a major innovation, in that it simply conflates what is already a fairly straightforward system (Does one really need Key 10, The Wheel of Fortune, to tell them that a Jupiter hour on a Venus day is a fortuitous sign?). BTW, if you think I am leaving something out, go read the Amazon reviews or purchase the book for yourself (you can read it in an hour). 90% of it is utter fluff and consists largely of telling the reader how great the system is. Best, UFA

Same thing. Best, UFA

I have a few minutes now for some additional commentary. I presume you mean Joseph Lisiewski. A student of Fr. Albertus, who has been reported by one his other students as having personally admitted to him that he "was not an alchemist". I found Lisiewsky's account of Israel Regardie and Albertus to be a fascinating read but I am very skeptical of him as an authority. For one, he wrote an entire book claiming to be the inventor of an astrological divination system that has been in the public domain for about a century in the Church of Light teachings. Secondly, I know that he engaged in unethical marketing tactics for his book on said subject. Third, there appears to be considerable doubt on many claims he makes about his past, including his claim to have a PhD. His entire body of work is thrown into doubt because there is a strong case to be made that he fabricates and borrows without credit. Assuming this is true, the existence of an authentic teaching of the chakras has no bearing on the existence of a fully active Western tradition, one which has transmitted its current from teacher to student for many centuries. A tradition that I can assure you, does not require interpretation via the aid of outside sources. I don't see how it is a blessing. I submit that it contributes to the confusion and leads serious seekers astray. For instance, how many people believe that the alchemist's red and white are a veiled reference to Ida and Pingala? This is 100% wrong. Who is this person who is advising us to approach the knowledge traditions with an open mind exactly? The fact that he is referring to them as knowledge traditions tells me that he has not clue what he's talking about or he is intentionally messing with you. I think "he" wants you to synthesize these traditions so that you never figure out who "he" is. I think at this point you should be asking yourself what your motivation is in comparing the teachings of the church with Daoism. These two traditions are mutually exclusive. That's what the Catholic Church would refer to as a pagan teaching, one which would land your soul in hell if you subscribed to it. Or are we not going to acknowledge that inconvenience because it doesn't mesh with your "subjective synthesis"? The fact that it reflects well against your personal subjective syncretism counts for absolutely nothing. Just because you believe something to be true, doesn't make it true (or practical). You don't see that you've framed a problem, come up with an eloquent solution and have fallen in love with it. Does it occur to you that the error might lie in how you've framed the problem? That's a controversial statement, which you may not be surprised to find I disagree with. This is an alleged Eastern teaching that is diametrically opposed to the western esoteric tradition. A similar statement could be made in regards to the western exoteric tradition, however. A lot of people believe that. ... The comparison to Daoism... Leads you to Eastern-sounding mumbo jumbo like this. At what point do you intend to have it harden into dogma? Sounds like a pretty miserable way to live, trying to transcend all this messy worldliness. A distinction which isn't quite so clear as one might think but you are on the right track. A good insight. Though what of the physical Philosopher's Stone? "Subjective synthesis" has grasped defeat from the jaws of victory. Understanding begins with seeing. But you can't see while your intellect is spinning so hard. Without claiming to understand it fully, this diagram is at least somewhat straightforward and does not (probably cannot) be explained by Eastern teachings. There are some very specific practices indicated by it, practices which are not to my knowledge taught in Daoism, for example. Ruach, Ruach spinning around, Never does he gain any ground. Numbers, facts, allegory Only tell half the story. You need to pick a side: East or West? UFA

You couldn't be more wrong. Sunday and Monday - The Sun and Moon Tuesday - A battle Wednesday - "wedness" day, the day of the wedding. In French, Mercredi, the root of which is Mer, which means "sea" Thursday - Thors day, Thunder Friday - The day of the feast Saturday - The day of rest, the completion of the work. Edit: I was in a hurry when I wrote this and I didn't have time to mention that there are two crosses (Taus) and two serpents in there as well. UFA

Hi EFS White, The concept of the chakras was imported to the West in the 19th century occult revival. They have no place in the traditional western current as far as I know. Mainstream occultism would have you pick up a book, any book really, and pretend to teach you some magic techniques that will turn you into a mage. In that world, nothing is wrong, nothing can be disproven. And this has given rise to the ancillary belief that nothing can be proven, a belief which most people who claim to engage in these spiritual practices secretly fear. And fear it they should, because they can't prove anything because most of them are engaging in mere fantasy. Two reasons mainstream occultism doesn't work are because it is based on wild speculation and a lack of any true connection with genuine spiritual teaching. Can man ever be at Unity with God? Wouldn't he cease to be Man? Perhaps God is asymptote... an ideal which can never be attained, not until the end of days when the giant reset button in the sky is pressed. Development might be a better word. "Growth" implies becoming something more, when IMO it is rather a realization of what you already are which is the challenge. "Ascension" strikes me as a terrible word really, one of those words that keeps the temple doors firmly locked. I couldn't tell you anything about that. This strikes me as a very vague idea hidden in seemingly specific terms. You talk about a "state". A state of what? Energy? Matter? Consciousness? This is very important. Without this, you can't really proceed any farther. Gross could mean large scale and without details. Fine could mean, "very small" (but both words have many definitions). Can energy be gross or fine? If not, that could introduce a complication in the so-called (New Age) chakra concept. And I don't think it can. Energy varies in wavelength and frequency of course, but can anyone really make the claim that different types of energy (visible light, x-rays, radio waves, etc) exist locally in the body? So to me, considerations such as these seem to rule out any idea of a development taking place in terms of energy. Can matter be course or fine? I suppose at the atomic level, it could... but that doesn't make much sense as we're essentially composed of a relatively small number of elements (C-O-H-N and various metals). Can consciousness be gross? Sure, but what does that mean? Does it mean morally low-minded? Or do you think it means "dull"? And what of its opposite... can a consciousness be "fine"? Same questions go for "pure"... can energy be pure? I have no concept of that not being the case. Can the body be pure? No. Can consciousness be pure? Leaving out common moral grounds for such a definition, one has to consider what "purity of consciousness" could actually mean. So if you continue this exercise, I suspect that your thoughts will eventually come to, if not a firm conclusion, at least a pretty good idea that these paths are dealing with states of consciousness. So starting with a vague concept of a spectrum ranging between material and spiritual, you made the leap to chakras. Rather than continue going down that road, let me challenge you with a question: What if the chakras simply don't exist? I imagine that would represent a major blow to many people's spiritual conceptions. But to me, it simply means that this concept was imported piecemeal into the existing western tradition, something we already know to be true. It also means that the nature of our quest does not lie in chakras. At least not in the West. What do you mean by "transcendence"? I believe they are tasks or attainments. Not mere mythological ones. Actual concrete steps and stages which occur in the traditional practice. That's a lot of philosophizing about something really simple. If you go to the moon, you know it. You're standing there, you can reach out and touch it, taste it, see it, smell it and hear it. It's just a place. Not a place which follows the same physical laws we are accustomed to, so it is a strange place. But a place nonetheless. I think that is getting a little closer. Maybe this will help. Also look at this... what do you see? S M T W T F S UFA

If you are interested in following up on this, then you should check out my old teacher and friend's book, "The Cube of Space" (Kevin Townley). I believe that there is something quite profound hidden in this symbolism, though I do not have any reason to believe that even Kevin knows what it is. I will say however that his book is the best I know of on the subject. UFA

Hello EFS White, Both. There are entities in the esosphere who seek to assist man in his awakening. And there are entities whose goals run counter to this. And just as these helpful entities make an effort to contact and work with individuals who are ready, so do their counterparts seek to disrupt this awakening in these individuals and to use other individuals to further their own ends. The Hermetic path is predicated on one's finding answers for themselves. Isn't it curious that if you begin at the top of this diagram and trace down to the moon, and then continue tracing, you get the days of the week? And if you trace clockwise around the outside of this circle, starting with Saturn, you get the ancient order of the planets? What do you suppose could be meant by this? Perhaps these symbols are pointing to something, a deeper truth... no, something more practical... a series of steps to be followed? One should find it quite interesting that the septagon, the Tree of Life, the days of the week, and the order of the ancient planets all align and support each other in this manner. Clearly something was intended by that. The path has many signposts, it is up to you to read them. Ugh. You didn't just go there. You've redeemed yourself for the chakra comment a bit. Not all of the way though. I want to see more good insights from you. Biorhythm... time... cycles... repetitions... Interesting. 7, 14, and 21... 3x7. 666 is the number of the beast. It is a human number. Jesus was crucified on a cross, between two other crosses. Three things of seven are implied here. Interesting. Eliphas Levi was allegedly a French adept who though he was held in high regard (as the French hold any French person of any repute), apparently did not know much of real value when it came to the practical work. I'm afraid this question doesn't make much sense to me. Do you manifest your influence cyclically or continually? Does the room you are sitting in manifest its influence cyclically or continually? (The latter might sound like an obvious question, but what if you aren't in the room, or you are sleeping, or the room is destroyed?) I perceive you are trying to label and conceptualize something which currently lies outside of your realm of experience. The danger is that if you succeed in putting a label on it, you will not be able to experience it. UFA

Hello EFS White, Well, that is an ambitious request. I doubt this response is going to go in the direction you're hoping but we have to start somewhere, so let's see if we can't make an effort at getting to the underpinnings of your question. The primary difficulty one encounters when approaching esoteric matters lies in its inherent subjectivity. Most of us are trained from a very early age to value the scientific worldview ("objectivity") over the subjective one. This commonly plays out as the effort to explain subjective phenomena via an objective worldview, effectively denying the reality of the former. I view syncreticism, comparative occultism, and the effort to explain occult phenomena in a scientific manner all as insidious manifestations of this mistaken and often unacknowledged belief in the superiority of objectivity. Conversely, one often comes across the attitude that nothing in occultism can be proven or disproven, and that therefore, anything one says or claims has validity. Surely, you have come across widely varying and conflicting sets of information in those books you've read. They cannot surely all be right. I would venture a guess that they range from the sublime to the downright ridiculous, with most falling somewhere in between. This places you in the impossible position of having to decide what you've read is correct and what is not... without a touchstone to make this decision on. Though this division between subjective and objective is a relatively modern development in consciousness (perhaps having its invention with Roger Bacon and Shakespeare, who are possibly the same person), we are for the most part untrained and unappreciative of its implications. It is this ignorance (both intellectual and experiential) that undermines the vast majority of investigative efforts into the occult. In fact, scientific investigation is a comparatively easy pursuit due to the fact that it does not attempt to contend with subjective side of the equation. Where I am going with this, is that in order to answer your question, you must seek a state of consciousness that is capable of correctly perceiving phenomena without the twin filters of "subjective" or "objective". Any serious pursuit of occultism must begin with this goal. The reason I've gone off on this seeming tangent should become apparent shortly. Your underlying assumption here is that because you have read many books which all seemingly agree that there is an energetic nature to the constellations, then surely this must be true. But what if it wasn't true? Could it be a possibility that every one of your sources could simply based on an mistaken ancient belief and that they've simply parroted some version of that belief forward over two thousand years? Or what if - more likely - everything you read was biased by your unacknowledged worship of scientific materialism? For instance, what if these sources were not hinting at energetic influences, but rather living consciousnesses? If they are not natural universal forces, but rather living consciousnesses, then perhaps their so-called directions and associated constellations are entirely unimportant. What direction did your latest thought come from? Which four directions? The cardinal directions or some combination thereof (for instance, Bull = Southwest)? And even if it is possible, why do you have any reason to believe that such a correspondence is useful? Do you really believe that consciousness or energy has some inherent relationship with physical direction? If so, what is this belief based on? Certainly they can be correlated. But before we begin the discussion of how many angels can fit on the head of a pin, I suggest we take a deeper look at your assumptions. What reason do you have to believe that there is any value of making such a correspondence? In fact, what reason do you have to believe that any of these systems mentioned have any value whatsoever? I sense here your scientific worldview creeping in. If we aren't dealing with energies but rather living beings, then your question is akin to asking you, "how do we zero and align Mr. EFS White?" I caution you that phrases like "vibrations" and "energy" are bandied about by most occult practitioners without any real thought given to what they are or even if they really exist. So many assumptions here. Why does astrology need physics to explain it? Perhaps physics isn't the right tool to understand consciousness and subjective phenomena because it is based on limiting assumptions. Perhaps astrology is nothing more than superstition. Perhaps it is valid but our modern understanding has gone far astray of the reality behind it. Let us try a thought experiment. Assume for a moment that the speed of light is not a universal constant of physics, but rather an artifact solely of our time-space consciousness. In other words, what we perceive as the inviolate constant c is not inviolate at all, but rather an asymptotic threshold that our objective consciousness is utterly incapable, either directly or indirectly (via measuring instruments), of penetrating. "Asymptotic" in the sense that as the objective consciousness comes closer and closer to this limit, strange and mysterious things begin to happen (such as changes in mass and time dilation). Now imagine that anything which travels faster than this speed transcends time and space and exists as consciousness in a realm we might primitively call the "astral plane". The phenomena of this realm would be unfettered by the mundane laws of time, mass, space, or gravity. And furthermore, the astrological entities exist in this realm... just as you and I do. Now what is interesting about this thought experiment is that you cannot disprove it. It may indeed be an accurate description of our reality. And it depicts a possible universe in which scientific understanding cannot begin to explain occult phenomena (or even certain mundane phenomena such as consciousness). And yet those phenomena have a basis in objective reality and are anything but subjective. As an author, I can tell you first hand that most of what you find in books is simply untrue. Best, UFA

You may not be able to make anything of it... it was likely only decipherable by the artist and his circle. UFA

Fortunately, the Great Work will carry on without need of your agreement. It may be helpful for those with more open and curious minds to read these words written by Fulcanelli (emphasis mine): UFA

Are there stages to illumination? Here is the first: This emblem depicts the common man, buried in earth and overrun by the serpent. Now there are those who hold that the serpent in alchemy represents a mere energy and confuse it with those serpents depicted in Indian esotericism which represent Ida and Pingala. Nothing could be further from the truth, as an acquaintance with alchemical literature will show. There are hundreds of diagrams which depict the serpent in different ways and many of the accompanying texts support the thought that the serpent depicted in them is the same as the serpent found in the Old Testament. But what of those stages? They are depicted in the following famous emblem. I have always found this to be a fascinating image. I was first acquainted with it in the early 90s, but its meaning had eluded me until just recently.

You speak in a very straightforward manner there. Good choice of words :-) UFA

Keep calm and carry on. I know the burden of this terrible revelation weighs heavily on your soul, but if it is any consolation, ramen with an egg is also not abstract. UFA

That's fine, but you quoted my reply to someone else so you tacitly accepted the burden of our context :-) UFA

She was probably selling stock tips over the phone :-) UFA

He didn't say inner peace. He said "spiritual wealth". UFA

No occult apologism here. I do not mean anything as abstract as "spiritual wealth". I mean actual currency, millions of dollars. UFA

That sounds pretty perfect, Nungali. :-) UFA

Interesting narrative, Nungali. My story is a bit different. In my younger years, I was (like many) a person who eschewed money and assumed that the quest for spiritual truth was mutually exclusive with more mundane pursuits. But as the years progressed, I learned to use Tarot as a psychological mirror and it taught me a number of things. One of those things was financial responsibility. Money is a powerful force which can have good and bad outcomes (such as the one Nungali described). But it is neutral of itself. So how could one seriously seek out more powerful forces if they can't demonstrate a mastery of such a basic one as that? Another was that before the serious pursuit of esotericism can commence, one must seek to satisfy one's worldly desires. I had not the slightest inkling in those early days of how deeply buried the need for financial security was in my psyche. Tarot and astrology helped me to identify that urge and later, taught me what I needed to do to satisfy it. So as a direct result, I became wealthy. Not only in the sense that I live far below my means, but also in the sense that my means are far above the average. UFA