Michael Sternbach
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Everything posted by Michael Sternbach
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Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Michael Sternbach replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
The war in which the prehistoric Athenians struck back an overly imperialistic Atlantis that had conquered much of the then-known world took place prior to the cataclysm that destroyed both civilizations. -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Michael Sternbach replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
Plato lets the Egyptian priest tell Solon that Athena (aka the Egyptian goddess Neith) founded Athens after the Earth goddess Gaia and the god Hephaestus provided “the seed of your race (of Athenians)”. Flambas thinks this statement might imply that Athena/ Neith arrived in the area of Athens from a distant place and united with the pre-existing native population to create the city. Interistingly, it seems like the cult of Athena originally started in Lybia. Athena/ Neith then founded the Egyptian city of Sais one thousand years later or about perhaps 8.600 B.C., apparently without the help of other gods. This statement might mean that colonisers from Athens travelled to Egypt and founded Sais one thousand years after Athens was founded. A five-thousand-year-old wooden label with the name of King Aha shows the symbol of Sais inside a wooden compound. This artefact indicates that Sais was already an important cult centre at the beginning of Egyptian history, around 3100 B.C. And the cult of the city’s patron goddess Neith was practised at least as early as the 1 st Dynasty, ca. 3100-3050 B.C. Prehistoric Athens didn't sink into the sea but (again according to Plato) was destroyed by a massive earthquake that was part of the same cataclysmic event that led to the submergence of Atlantis. -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Michael Sternbach replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
That's the reason I made Plato's Atlantis the central theme of this thread, which does not mean that there can't be any detours whatsoever, as long as we get back on topic. As for the war between Atlantis and prehistoric Athens, Settegast has extensively explored that topic from a historic perspective, and I hope to present some of her conclusions soon. -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Michael Sternbach replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
Plato was describing a world in which a prehistoric Athens existed at the same time like Atlantis, i.e. until somewhen in about the tenth millenium B.C., when both civilizations were destroyed in the same cataclysmic event. While any claims of humans that weren't hunter-gatherers existing so far back in time seemed ludicrous to academic scientists until recently, what we know now about places like Göbekli Tepe, Çatal Hüyük, Jericho proves that larger societies capable of advanced feats of architecture, agriculture etc. existed much earlier than hitherto accepted. -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Michael Sternbach replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
Following Plato, we must indeed suppose a cataclysmic (i.e. catastrophic) event, such as the dramatic increase in sea levels following the impact of a comet in the Arctic ice sheet (which talked about in my February 17 post), as opposed to the relatively slow rise occuring due to the gradual melting of the glaciers during the first several thousand years of our current inter-glacial epoch. Alternatively - and more in accordance with Plato's account - we might assume a sudden sinking of the Atlantic Island due to terrestrial activity as suggested by Flambas, Zhirov and others. The Greek historian Diodorus Siculus tells us that Atlas (the first son of Poseidon and Cleito, and the first king of Atlantis) was gifted in the art of astrology and was the first to present to mankind the doctrine of the sphere, for which reason he is said to have supported the vault of heaven on his shoulders. As evidenced by the structure of Atlantis with its aqueducts, and especially of its capital Poseidonis with its big circular channels . The following article gives a good general overview of these glacial climatic oscillations, called Dansgaard-Oeschger (D-O) cycles: https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/abrupt-climate-change-during-the-last-ice-24288097 However, not all areas of the globe were equally subject to such climatic changes; thus, in order to determine how our supposed Atlantic Island was doing during the last ice age, we have to turn to more specialized surveys. A quick search (lasting a mere three hours or so ) brought up J. E. Hertzberg: "Decadal- to centennial-scale tropical Atlantic climate variability across a Dansgaard-Oeschger cycle", which explores to what extent the Cariaco basin, lying off the north central coast of Venezuela, was affected by such climatic fluctuations. This seems like a good approximation, since the Venezuelan basin is perhaps the most plausible location for our submerged island, as suggested by Dr. P. P. Flambas in his aforementioned book Plato's Carribean Atlantis - A Scientific Survey. Long story short, the article concludes: Agriculture may in fact have started much earlier than generally believed. Specimens of cultivated wheat (Triticum dicoccum) were retrieved at a neolithic site in Nahal Oren, Israel, from a level indicating an age of approximately 16.000 years. Grinding tools have been found in the vicinity as well. However, the authors of the respective article (being careful academics) don't consider the evidence fully conclusive. Source: T. Noy et al.: "Recent Excavations at Nahal Oren, Israel", in: Proseedings of the Prehistoric Socienty, vol. 39, Dec 1979, pp. 75-99. If the megalithic site of Göbekli Tepe was indeed the result of an Atlantean influence (which seems to be a reasonable assumption), it may have been built under the direction of just a small group of settlers - who eventually mingled with the natives. Yes, that's a good question that made me rattle my gears already a number of times. My conclusion so far: If we imagine some global cataclysm had eradicated our technological civilization with all the comforts that it provides. Those of us who had the opportunity would naturally turn to native tribes accustomed to living in nature for help to survive. Any of our more advanced technological items would soon stop functioning and be destroyed, however, the more knowledgeable among us about science and technology may pass on whatever they can to their descendants and to the natives. Isn't it conceivable that we would figure out ways to preserve as much information as possible even over many generations, with heavy losses and distortions perhaps, but recoverable when circumstances permit? And that one day, some geniuses would build a culture in some ways resembling our own on that foundation? I wonder, how would genetic science know what to look for? How would it affect the genetical record if the Atlanteans had simply been Cro-Magnon humans that settled in regions where we know the latter existed? Also, I don't believe that human genetics are particularly well understood, overall. Quoting the 2014 National Geographic article "Oldest Burial Yields DNA Evidence of First Americans" by K. Than: I may have some more on genetics later, but I have to look for it first. Well, it has been suggested for the Great Sphinx and the temples associated with it... For submerged structures off the coast of the Bahamas... For the city of Tiahuanaco in the Andes... But none of this is undisputed - and before anybody gets worked up about what I said in passing, I'd ask to keep your arguments pro and con for the specific topics to be launched soon. Many cultures have preserved memory of a 'mother civilization' that existed in the Atlantic ocean, though. IMO, the evidence is for that is compelling! We will look at some of that material in topics dedicated to Egypt, the Americas etc. Bear in mind that we barely see beyond the veil that the last ice age has spread. Present day understanding of our human history is woefully incomplete; at best, we have scratched the surface, IMO. I propose that Atlantis is just the tip of the iceberg - there were indeed more sophisticated cultures, knowledge of which has come down to us in mythology and esoteric lore. And I have little doubt that future excavations will bring much undreamed of archaeological evidence to the light of day. How much more do we know about ancient times than people a hundred years ago, and yet how much more will be found within a hundred years from now... -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Michael Sternbach replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
The structure of the Atlantic Island and its capital. Indications of the esoteric knowledge possessed by the Atlanteans. Some more about the possible location of Atlantis. (Especially Zhirov's book contains alot of material pertinent to that and processing it takes a bit...) Some more also about the prehistoric world at large that Atlantis existed in and that Plato to some degree includes in his description. . -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Michael Sternbach replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
Especially in regards to what we accept as factual. Let me see... I come from a place of (alright, what I consider to be) inner knowledge, and I am intrigued to find evidence that is in line with my intuitions. Not that I wouldn't trust them... But it helps me fill in the blanks and also to demonstrate to others what I basically knew all along. Thanks, so do I. As elaborated on in my OP. That Wikipedia article is crap. M. Settegast doesn't deny the reality of Plato's Atlantis, and most certainly she doesn't equate it with Magdalenian culture. She just writes she doesn't know how its existence can be explained in spite of lacking geological evidence, although her book presents plenty of archaeological/historical evidence for it. Funnily enough, N. Zhirov (whose book I repeatedly mentioned above) says exactly the opposite: He presents geological evidence for the existence of the Atlantic Island, but says he is not aware of any historical facts that would back up the myth. Oh, I see: They "have been explained" - I suppose by "authorities" in the field?! Wow, fantastic! File closed. And no danger that any textbooks would ever have to be rewritten! Phew... Oh great! Mr. Nungers can't find the 'originals', therefore the images in the book of M. Settegast (a well-reputed scholar) are likely faked... The caves mentioned are in different locations (and it seems like the pictures are not even shown). And how does Hancock (not "Handcock") suddenly come into play? Maybe suggesting you should be medicated while writing your posts wasn't such a good idea after all... Uhm, I hate to break it to you, but this link just shows the cover image of the book, with no horses in sight whatsoever. I don't see that post as seriously deviating from this thread's subject as stated. For your convenience, once again, here it is... Some of this is quite interesting. Thanks. So I gather that the question of paleolithic horse domestication is being debated. Like most of the topics touched on in this thread... -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Michael Sternbach replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
What I proposed in my OP was meant as a guideline. But of course I was aware that in a thread like this one, there is an inevitable tendency for the discussion to get sidetracked, and if I would have wanted to rigorously avoid that, I would have had to start this topic in my PPD. But I decided not to do that, as I intended to invite wider participation, plus I think that some digression can actually be worthwhile. I was intentionally giving the (mostly) interesting discussion so far some room to unfold before I was going to introduce new material. As a matter of fact, I was told that the information contained at least in my earlier posts was pretty dense, and I was asked to slow down. A brief summary seems like a good idea. Thanks, mate! Summary Insofar it pertains to the topic, up to now: we were looking at the time frame suggested by Plato, how it ties in with end of the last ice age, and the plausibility of that; we determined how big we should expect the Atlantic Island to have have been; we started discussing some possible locations for the Atlanteran civilization, including some that seem to digress from Plato's descriptions at first, but may tie in with the Atlantean colonies that he hints at; we looked at the hypothesis of an Atlantean influence on the glacial Magdalenian culture; we considered why and in what ways the Atlantean civilization may have advanced beyond any other at the time and what the indications of that were - which took us a bit off-topic into Egyptian masonry. And now it seems necessary to introduce new material to keep this topic going into the intended direction, and to open up at least one spin-off thread real quick for dealing with the 'Egyptian connection'. Stay tuned for that, please... Oh, and I used 'deluge' in the header as a poetic way to refer to the submergence of Atlantis. And yes, this may tie in with both the 'Biblical flood' and the global rise of sea levels at the beginning of the current inter-glacial period. I think it's a good idea if I next give you an outline of what in particular I still wish to cover in this current thread. -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Michael Sternbach replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
All of that may indeed have a meaning... ...although it is probably not to be taken literally. That said, I would not dismiss any ideas regarding human contact with aliens (be in times ancient or modern) a priori. E.g., many American Indian tribes have legends about 'star people'. However, that's a different discussion, and from my perspective, we can treat the 'lost civilization' topic quite apart from it. Yeah, it is neither necessary nor even possible to be fussy in a thread like this. My idea for it, however, is to use Plato's hypothesis as our primary frame of reference. Well, much as with aliens, you seem to have decided that magic (at least the kind that seemingly defies the laws of physics), dragons and flying horses are BS - whereas these and many other things for which there is little objective proof in some way constitute very much a part of the world that I am living in. We can simply agree to disagree here, though. I remain sceptical regarding the conclusiveness of what you presented so far even factoring in the vast workforce supposedly available to a pharaoh - but as I said, I am looking forward to more of your material once we are going to talk specifically about the idea of our lost civilization's influence on Egypt. Expect me to start that proposed thread on this any moment now, as this one is going more and more off the rails. Alright, let's leave all that for the dedicated topic. This is nothing but ridicule - best to be ignored. Yes, considerations regarding how Magdalenian culture may tie in with Plato's Atlantis do belong here. Here goes: These are Magdalenian engravings from (a) St. Michel d' Arudy, (b) Grotte de Marsoulas, (c) La Marche. (Illustration scanned from M. Settegast: Plato Prehistorian, p. 27.) I somehow doubt that you will find this really convincing (and won't be losing any sleep over it, TBH), however, the book text accompanying these pictures says: I was talking about this post which you neglected to comment on so far. -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Michael Sternbach replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
These are all very important questions that you are asking. And as long as there is no unambiguous archeological evidence available, the way to proceed is to lay out the indications that archeology, history, mythology, even psychics provide and to see how it all may fit together. In essence, that's what people like Bauval, Collins, Schoch, Hancock are doing, and that's what I am intending with this thread, to whatever extent it may be possible. Taking the available evidence and formulating theories, which may or may not be proven eventually, that's the methodology of academic sciencists too, of course, except that they are being more cautious with their conclusions than most of the popular 'Atlantologists'. This is sometimes a good thing, however, official science does have its biasses and blinders too, and many a professor won't dare to touch a topic that is too controversial, fearing for their reputation. Thus it takes people like Hancock et al. to address a wide audience and that way to start and stir the necessary discussion. Plato is a good point of reference in this discussion, IMO, in which speculation abounds. After all, it was him who first taught us about Atlantis, and moreover, about so many things that are now central to philosophy, both orthodox and occult. Most of all, we tend to see those societies through our own cultural biasses. Thus, for a long time, it was generally believed by academics that there was little mysticism in ancient Egypt, just because some of the defining criteria for the latter set up by those same academics were not being met - when ancient authors as well as modern esotericists had been telling us all along about Egypt's profound spirituality all along! However, it took Jeremy Naydler's book Shamanic Wisdom in the Pyramid Texts: The Mystical Tradition of Ancient Egypt to make the idea at least more acceptable to academic science. So I believe that it is the mystics, esotericists, occultists (and I would count e.g. Graham Hancock and John Anthony West among those) that have the edge over academic scientists when it comes to understanding ancient cultures, as they are more likely to do so in the latter's own terms. But again, I by no means deny the importance of the archeologist's discoveries... I just think we can use and learn from all those contributions to the field. "The mind is like a parachute: It only works when it's open." - Ed Parker -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Michael Sternbach replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
And every myth has a true core, it is said. Before we may go into specific examples, it should be helpful to clarify the difference between the modern and conventional view of history on the one hand, and the classical and occultist view on the other hand. The modern, conventional view typically sees history as a process of gradual development from a relatively primitive to a more advanced state. Whereas the classical view (and in agreement with it, also the occultist view) considers history mostly a decline from a higher state to a lower state. The most prominent examples are the Greek model of the four ages (Golden, Silver, Bronze, Iron Age) and the very similar Indian model (Satya-, Treta-, Dvapara, Kali-Yuga); but we find essentially the same concept also in Persian culture, in various South/Central/North American cultures as well as in quite a few others. Typically, each age ends with a cataclysm that creates a veil obscuring that which came before; except for some kind of summary of it that is being passed on to and fertilizes the next cycle. Frankly, I am not sure where your preoccupation with super advanced technologies comes from. I stated right at the beginning of this topic that it was meant to be all about Plato's Atlantis, and in that, there is little that would speak to super advanced technologies. That said, I do consider the ancient teachings of astrology, alchemy and magic as highly sophisticated sciences/technologies in their own right, albeit naturally not in the modern materialistic understanding of those terms. What degree of mastery of those sciences/technologies may prehistoric civilizations have possessed, though? For instance, were they able to levitate huge blocks of rock using psychic forces, possibly amplified by simple means that we would not even recognize as something of a technological nature? I am all for treading carefully - but there are undeniable facts that do seem to support aforesaid classical/occultist views of history, for instance those you allude to yourself in the next paragraph that I quote: So this dude demonstrated that he can push a 1-ton block over some distance. Moreover, he lifted a block with a weight of 19.200 pounds (which translates to 8.7 tons, not 20 tons, as the title claims!) first three feet off the ground, then he stood it up eventually. While this is quite impressive alright, it doesn't come anywhere near what the Egyptians of the fourth dynasty did: Bringing 60 to 70-ton blocks up to a height of roughly 50 meters as building elements for the king's chamber in the Great Pyramid. Not to mention the 200-ton blocks our ancient masons used (much earlier, around 10.000 BC?) in constructing the Sphinx temples as though they were Lego blocks. And here, some guys using a copper saw plus water and sand managed to cut into a granite block - how deep? 10 centimeters perhaps? "In just a few days", as they say. Now lets do some simple math (which Graham Hancock thankfully already did for us in his Fingerprints of the Gods): The Great Pyramid has been reliably estimated to consist of 2.3 million blocks (most of them granite, though the no longer existing outer casing consisted of limestone). Assuming that it was under construction for 20 years (as the archeologists say) and that our diligent masons worked ten hours a day, 365 days a year, the rate that these blocks needed not only to be put in position (which Hancock's calculation refers to), but obviously also to be cut ready for use is a staggering 31 blocks an hour or about one block every two minutes! Is it just me or doesn't something quite add up here... Obviously. A LOT. Thanks for admitting that, mate! I will resist the temptation to talk at length here about the Egyptian mummy, which a hair analysis proved to contain a fair amount of cocaine, although the coca plant was completely unknown in the pre-Columbian Old World. Again, I made no claims as to the Atlanteans having used laser rays and the like... Or when Lemuria itself rises! I am indeed working on bringing up circumstantial evidence for Plato's lost civilization in what you may consider a piecemeal manner. I am not pretending that any single one of them would suffice as proof for its existence. Only once we see them all laid out on the table, we may safely draw our personal conclusions regarding the latter. I was indeed not holding a speech on Magdalenian art as such, but really just considering it as evidence for a supposed Atlantean influence. Hey, which happens to be our topic! The pictures I posted were indeed just intended as examples for Magdalenian art in general. I didn't have any pictures of those harness wearing horses ready, though there are some shown in the aforementioned book Plato Prehistorian by Mary Settegast. I shall see later (when I have time) if I can scan them and present them a little further down this thread. Again, some of the known prehistoric cultures may have been inspired by contact with Atlantean civilization - and we will look into more possible examples for that too a little further down the road. Looking forward to your comments on this and my previous post, Nungers. And of course, hoping for others to chime in again too. -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Michael Sternbach replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
Hold it right there! In the two dialogues in which he introduces Atlantis, Plato lets his protagonists repeatedly emphasize that what is being shared is NOT a fictional story but facts. Examples from the Timaios Critias: “Then listen, Socrates, to a tale which, though strange, is certainly true, having been attested by Solon, who was the wisest of the seven sages.” Socrates: “You speak well. But what is this ancient achievement which was not only actually related by Solon, but was once really accomplished by this city (Athens)?” Critias: “ ... what that event was which Solon asserted as a fact.” Examples from the Critias Timaios: “Grant that my words might endure in so far as they have been spoken truly and acceptably to him (God); but if unintentionally I have said anything wrong, I pray that he will impose upon me a just retribution, and the just retribution of him who errs is that he should be set right.” Critias: “I would specially invoke Mnemosyne (the Ancient Greeks’personification of memory); for all the important part of my discourse is dependent on her favour, and if I can recollect and recite enough of what was said by the priests and brought hither by Solon.” So it would seem like Plato, aware of his reputation for narrating allegorical stories, was making a real effort to clarify that this one was not one of them! Moreover, the story's truthfulness may be underlined by his revered teacher Socrates, who favoured truth as the highest value, testifying to it in the dialogues. And it seems doubtful that Plato would have put the reputation of Solon, his ancestor and a highly respected states-man, on the line by attributing a made up but allegedly true story to him. Also, we know from Herodotus that Solon actually travelled to Egypt, thus knowledge he received there could have been passed on to Plato, his descendant. Furthermore, in his Commentary on the Timaeus, Proclus (4th century CE) stated that the pillars in the Temple of Neith inscribed with the story of Atlantis still existed in his time (we know that this temple was gone by the 14th century CE). Then he would have been using a bad example for his beloved Athens, because the Atlanteans are portrayed as a people that Zeus decided to punish for their arrogance and that were in fact beaten back by the heroic early - Athenians! Plato was fairly particular about where this civilisation was located and furthermore gave us a plenitude of details about it which would be redundant if it was meant as nothing but an allegory. Well, if the implication would be that the Atlanteans already had washing machines with dryers, then they may not have had advanced technology. On the other hand, the ancient Romans built some aqueducts that leave us moderns puzzled over how they actually function! So in those terms, they may have been technologically advanced. I mentioned more modern ideas about Atlantis's incredible technological sophistication in passing, however, all I feel really confident to say at this stage is that this civilization must have been really advanced for its time - while leaving the actual degree and nature of that advancement open. That's a very interesting topic in its own right! I intend to dedicate a thread of its own to it and look forward to what else you have to share. I would say, Donnelly's Atlantis - The Antediluvian World was a fair attempt for its time. While some of its ideas may indeed be obsolete, a number of the author's arguments are still worthy of our consideration, IMO. However, as a detailled analysis of the text would require far more time than I am ready to dedicate to this right now, I will leave it to the interested reader to follow up on it. Donnelly's book can be freely downloaded here: http://www.duhovnirazvoj.com/ElektronskaBiblioteka/The Antideluvian world-Atlantis.pdf <Uhum> Quoting my OP: "Here, I intend to be looking at the Atlantis legend as shared by Plato in connection with the end of the last Ice Age (to put it more simply) and then to move on to explore other aspects of that lost civilizations and the inheritance that may have been received from it by subsequent cultures that we have more factual knowledge about ... Please try to stay more on less on topic as outlined and try to post comments of a more general nature in our previous TDB Atlantis thread." And while it is in the nature of any such thread to drift a bit this way and that way, I believe I did make an adequate effort not to digress too far from the stated objective in my posts. There you go, mate! Yay!!! Mind you, I actually didn't give Cayce that much credit in this topic and mentioned him only as more of a secondary source. I missed it, I am afraid, though it does make sense. See above. Nobody expects you to go to the other extreme, mate! More than just one, I hope. Alright, lets get back to work then... Tomorrow! -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Michael Sternbach replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
Hold on... Is it derived from 'lad'? -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Michael Sternbach replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
She said 'laddies', though. Not quite sure what this means, but then, I am still working through my English 101 course... -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Michael Sternbach replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
The thing is, I already posted some highly speculative information earlier that was expected to trigger a scornful reaction from you, yet you reacted with more speculative information (e.g. the hint at Tilak's The Arctic Home in the Vedas). Understood. However, just in case some psychotropic substance was playing a role in the amenable attitude you recently demonstrated, would you consider to continue taking it, please? Indeed. There were times I was questioning if you are a human at all. Pooling knowledge is great and I would appreciate being able to continue doing that. However, ridicule (from a certain degree on) tends to block any constructive exchange and takes the discussion to another level. Some third-party readers might still find it entertaining, however, IMO, it's not conducive to the objective of this thread. I mentioned this mostly as a preventive measure, explaining my refusal to further discuss certain issues right now. I learned from the best... And I thought you might appreciate the offer! Would I want to miss your contributions? Looking forward to it. -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Michael Sternbach replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
Again, this has been addressed already. However, you are welcome to share your material on ancient Egypt in aforesaid upcoming topic. Neither. According to Plato, Atlantis was extremely advanced for its time. That it had supertechnology in our terms at its disposal is a relatively modern idea (e.g. advocated by Cayce), however, although some historical facts may be seen as actual indications of that - from our perspective! Which brings to mind that it would have been difficult for the ancient Egyptians and Greeks respectively to pass on to future generations knowledge of things for which they had no conception. That being said, the idea of there once having been a highly advanced philosophy/science that was mostly lost, but that is partially extant in the occult sciences, is not a modern one. It played an important role for instance in the Renaissance, such as with the Italian natural philosopher Giordano Bruno, who attributed ancient Egypt with that kind of knowledge, -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Michael Sternbach replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
You essentially asked that question already in your last post, and I replied to it in my previous post. -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Michael Sternbach replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
I was not aware of you asking me any question in that post. Maybe because they lacked their usual obtrusiveness? Yes, but they overlap on some occasions. And I believe I was being thoughtful in regards to what term I was using when overall, although it is possible that I made a few mistakes. Not so. The ancient Egyptians believed that the foundations of their civilization were laid by 'Gods' who had come from a remote island. I will say much more on this in a subsequent topic especially dedicated to the influence Atlantis had on early Egypt. Likewise, we will see in due time that the Mayans believed themselves to be the heirs of a bringer of culture they called Quetzalcoatl. A belief shared by many other tribes all over the American double continent, BTW. And it was in fact the European settlers who attributed the city of Tiahuanaco in the Andes to the Incas - whereas the latter just laughed and said, no, it was done by mysterious beings long before their time. I could add more examples, but I will reserve that for the respective threads. However, the presented examples should suffice to demonstrate that, insofar we are dealing with "white imperialistic arrogance" in this context, it lies in disrespect towards what those peoples themselves shared regarding their origins. I have that book, though I had no opportunity to read it yet. I will at least take a good look at it before we come specifically to Egypt in one of my next threads. However, as long as nobody actually replicates some of the ancient Egyptians' most astounding feats with nothing but primitive tools, I will most likely remain unconvinced by the theories it sets forth. I am actually intending to look at Lemuria in yet another thead especially dedicated to that topic. And I am well aware of the many implausible ideas regarding it as well as of the evidence that speaks to its actual existence, in some form. The Solutrean can be seen as the last stage of the Gravettian that I solely refered to; quoting Wikipedia: "The Solutrean industry is a relatively advanced flint tool-making style of the Upper Palaeolithic of the Final Gravettian, from around 22,000 to 17,000 BP." While it is true that in the Aurignacian period humans became artisically remarkably advanced, the degradation you talk about already occured in the subsequent Solutrean. CrĂ´-Magnon art mostly belongs to the first and the last of these three. So basically, in the Magdalene revived the topic and developed it to new heights. It is correct that Magdalenian art gained in complexity over time. Of course it is conceivable that it just took some time until the Atlantean art style could be fully integrated in the pre-existing local culture. Huh? The pictures I presented are examples of Magdalenian art. Agreed. As far as our knowledge of them goes, anyway. There may just not be very much extant for us to find, except what was relatively well protected in caves. - And just to make sure that all our readers understand this, those painted caves mentioned above were sanctuaries, not the homes of the Magdalenian people. That said, I concur that the Atlantean mother civilzation must have been considerably more sophisticated. But what we found in southwest Europe may be remnants from people that were Atlantean refugees or outcasts and that essentially had to start all over again. Or they may even have been local natives that simply evolved to a certain degree under the influence of the Atlanteans. -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Michael Sternbach replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
Nobody said without a trace. However, as I said, I would like to postbone this discussion at least until I'm done with the respective chapter of Atlantis - Atlantology: Basic Problems by Russian geologist N. Zhirov. As far as I am concerned, we can discuss speculative ideas. I was simply referring to the fact that many scientific concepts are ridiculed initially, but find general recognition eventually. Not that I usually felt inclined to wait for that... -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Michael Sternbach replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
Nungali, First off, while I was surprised, I really appreciated your kind consideration of the ideas presented in my thread so far. For awhile, it seemed like we could actually continue to have a fruitful discussion about this topic. Looks like you have been fully restored to your usual scornful self now, though... Very well... I am going to deal with some of your objections, however, with a few reservation. For one thing, I may leave going further into certain topics to the proposed subsequent threads. If you are not sure what I mean, review my OP and remember that I put 'part 1' in this thread's header for a reason. More in general, please remember that I started this thread to inspire the reader and to stimulate their imagination, and I won't let it turn into another Karate sparring match! However, if you insist on the latter, you are very welcome to visit me here in Switzerland, and we will look for a suitable spot in my yard... That said, let me take a closer look at your most recent posts next. -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Michael Sternbach replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
Alchemy and Magic are two of the 'sciences of the past', and they are anything but fraudulence. -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Michael Sternbach replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
Maybe so. However, it is hard to conceive how the ancient Egyptians accomplished some of the stone processing that they were evidently capable of without having inherited the means therefor from a civilzation as advanced as our own, if not more so. https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_hitech07.htm However, I am open to the idea that Atlantean science and technology were advanced in a different direction than the one taken by ourselves overall. Along the lines of what Arthur C. Clarke shared, namely that the technology of a sufficiently advanced civilization will be indistinguishable from magic. -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Michael Sternbach replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
The 'occult' view of history differs from the conventional one insofar culture isn't seen so much as the result of a gradual development but as something bestowed from 'above' - and'that 'above' frequently takes the form of a preceding civilization passing on the torch to a more 'primtive' people via a group of emigrants, typically under the leadership of a charismatic emissary. In regards to Atlantis, it is interesting to note that in prehistoric southwest Europe, Gravettian culture (known for its Venus figurines) was replaced quite abruptly by the Magdalenian (ca. 17.000-9.000 BC) whose sophisticated cave art can be found in an area from the Atlantic coast all the way to the Rhone - in fact approximating the territory controlled by the Atlanteans according to Plato, both in terms of its location and its duration. Moreover, this seems in line with Cayce who said that there were emigrants from Atlantis settling in the Pyrenees long before its final destruction. Here are some examples for Magdalene art from a cave in Lascaux, France: That kind of wall painting is often found deep inside the caves, in places that are are dark and hard to access. Most likely, those places served spiritual purposes, such as for initiation rites. Remarkably, the paintings are very much alike in the the whole vast area they are seen in, with very little regional variation. Even more remarkably, once the style changed, it did so everywhere at once! Possibly hinting at a cultural centre that this art was emanating from. The predominantly featured animal was the horse, and this should make Atlantologists prick up their ears, as this was an animal attributed to Poseidon. Plato gave a detailed description of the race courses used for horse training in the Atlantean capital. Some of the cave paintings even show horses wearing harnesses, indicating that these animals were being tamed much earlier than the textbooks would have us believe. Magdalene cave art reached its climax as far as sophistication and realism towards the end of the 11th millenium BC whereafter it started to decline both in quality and quantity. Later paintings tend to be found closer to the cave entrances and on stone plaques respectively, and they are cruder and more schematic. It has also been noted that at some of the earlier Magdalene sites, hardly anything that would qualify as a weapon is found - rather untypical for an alleged community of hunters! Save for 'weapons' that seem to have served ritualistic purposes, such as carved antlers with rounded off tips (!) that conceivably would make a nice props symbolizing Poseidon's trident. However, simultaneous with the decline of Magdalene art, we find an increase in arrow points spread out all over the area! The message seems clear: There was a loss of interest in art and spirituality and an increased focus on warfare taking place - until, sometime in the 9th millenium BC, Magdalene culture had vanished completely. This again seems in keeping with Plato, who tells us that the early Atlantean kings were divinely inspired and , for many generations, characterized by a certain "'greatness of mind" (Critias 120). Theirs must hence have been a creative and benign governance before the race weakened, grew ambitious, and went to war. While outwardly successful, they had become arrogant and superficial. Therefore, Zeus decided to punish them... Unfortunately, the Critias breaks off right there. Most of the information presented here is from Mary Settegast's Plato Prehistorian - a scholarly book highly recommended to anybody with a serious interest in Atlantology. -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Michael Sternbach replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
The thing is that, although scale is different, the basic idea is there in orthodox geology already. So even though Flambas's idea would still be considered fringe science, it gained credibility this way, IMO. Some of today's fringe science may well be what will be written in the official textbooks tomorrow. -
Story of Atlantis Part 1 - Ice Age and Deluge
Michael Sternbach replied to Michael Sternbach's topic in The Rabbit Hole
Looks freakin' cool. What goes up must come down eventually, no? Talking about that, Flambas presents a theory that the enormous weight of the ice down pressing down on the crust in the polar regions during the ice age made the surface slightly bulge out in the equatorial zone - especially the sea floor, where the crust is so much thinner. A hydraulic mechanism involving magma, as it were. - Melt the ice, take the pressure off: woosh, down your island goes! First I thought this concept (interesting as it sounded) was complete 'fringe science', however, meanwhile I found it in academic literature too. Talking about the Azores theory, I just started reading the respective chapter of Zhirov's book. More on that later.
