Michael Sternbach

I did enjoy the image overlays. And started wondering: From what size on would an isle count as a continent?

In regards to the highlighted part: I believe so too. Since this corresponds most closely with the foundational astrological diagram combined with the chakras: And also with related alchemical iconography in which invariably the male, solar aspect is red and the female, lunar aspect is white: All this speaking to the universal validity of the scheme you introduced.

The Greeks of Solon’s time would most likely have considered 'Libya' the area covered by Cyrenaica and Marmarica: roughly 700 km east-west by 400 km north-south, giving a total area of 280,000 km2. Whereas 'Asia' would probably be a reference to Anatolia (Asia minor) with an extent of 585,000 km2. Thus, the combined area would be 865,000 km2. Since according to Plato the Atlantic Island was even larger than that, its size might have been about 1,000,000 km2. Which means that, if Atlantis still existed, it would now be the second largest island on Earth! In comparison, Greenland is the world’s largest island with an area of over 2.1 million km2; New Guinea is the second largest island with an area of 786,000 km2. No wonder Atlantis is often called a continent. Flambas reads this passage to mean "opposite the Straits" rather than close to them - but I'd agree that this seems to be a bit of a stretch. Nevertheless, Cuba - or more generally the Antilles overal - may still be our best bet as far as finding the remnants of Atlantis. There is a passage from Proclus’ Commentary on Plato’s Timaeus that seems right in line with that: “That an island (the Atlantic Island) of such nature and size once existed is evident from what is said by certain authors who investigated the things around the outer sea (the Atlantic Ocean). For according to them, there were seven islands in that sea in their time, sacred to Persephone, and also three others of enormous size, one of which was sacred to Pluto, another to Ammon, and another one between them to Poseidon, the extent of which was a thousand stadia (210 km); and the inhabitants of it – they add – preserved the remembrance from their ancestors of the immeasurably large island of Atlantis which had really existed there and which for many ages had reigned over all islands in the Atlantic sea and which itself had likewise been sacred to Poseidon. Now these things Marcellus has written in his Aethiopica ... " The only location that fits Proclus’ description is the Caribbean Sea, where the three large islands might be the Greater Antilles islands of Cuba, Jamaica and Hispaniola (Haiti/ Dominican Republic). If so, the middle island sacred to Poseidon would be Jamaica, which is about 230 km long and virtually identical in length to the one thousand stadia (210 km) that Marcellus describes. Cuba and Hispaniola would be the islands sacred to Pluto and Ammon; Cuba is about 1,100 km long and Hispaniola is about 650 km long. The seven islands sacred to Persephone might be some of the larger islands of the Lesser Antilles plus Puerto Rico then. "There is geological evidence for uplift and emergence above sea-level of some previously submerged parts of the Caribbean Plate. If those newly emergent parts were the Venezuelan Basin and the adjoining Aves and Beata Ridges; and if they were then added to Hispaniola and Puerto Rico, which were already emergent, the combined landmasses would form Plato’s Atlantic Island", says Flambas. And: "Once the Beata and Aves Ridges and the Venezuelan Basin rose above sea-level and combined with the landmasses of Hispaniola and Puerto Rico, the total land area of the fully emergent Atlantic Island was about 1,040,000 km2." According to the analysis given in Zhirov's book (mentioned above), the even plateau to the south of the islands matches the plane of Atlantis as described by Plato in both shape and size rather nicely. Then again, bear in mind that the volcanic archipelago is geologically rather unstable. From Edgar Cayce's Atlantis (by G.L. Little, L. Little, J. Van Auken):

That sounds interesting. I have been organizing a remote viewing group for awhile, though we were more medically oriented. However, MANY psychics (including some highly accomplished ones) already tried to locate Atlantis, and they rarely agreed with each other. Maybe some of them tapped into another lost civilization or into a parallel universe... Who knows.

Alright, I watched the whole series of four National Geographic episodes suggested by Nungali, and those of you who wish to do likewise can find them here melded into a one-hour documentary. My commentary: Those guys in South Spain doing an archeological search under what used to be a large mud field may be onto something, however, that "something" is not going to be Plato's Atlantis. Both the location and the suggested timeframe are off. Also covered in the documentary is the old "Atlantis = Santorini" theory, which holds no water (pun not consciously intended), IMO. Again, place and time are off, and while there are indications that the archipelago was hit by tsunamis, it definitely didn't vanish in the sea.

Indeed, the "Eye of Africa" seems to be a natural geologic structure - albeit a remarkably symmetrical one. However, it is highly eroded, which might make it difficult to determine if any of it may have been at least 'enhanced' by humans. By the same token, Flambas's book (mentioned above) suggests that the capital of Atlantis described by Plato may have been founded on a natural dome structure expanded and/or rectified by the early Atlanteans. But note that I included the Richat/Atlantis theory for the sake of completeness and for discussion, I am not supporting it per se. For one thing, as you mentioned, it is in fact in the wrong area. However, this area also isn't exactly an island in the Atlantic "beyond the Pillars of Heracles" (the Strait of Gibraltar). Quoting what the Egyptian priest is telling Solon in the Timaios, as he is first bringing the topic: In the Critias, Plato elaborates that the large territory ruled by the Atlanteans was divided amongst ten kings, the "sons of Poseidon". I think that "Sons of Poseidons" may have been titles given to the Atlantean kings, much in the way later in Egypt a pharaoh was sometimes called "Son of Re" (the Egyptian Sun god). And Gades (the old name of Cadiz) was named after one of Poseidon's sons, says Plato. Going out on a limb, I could envision that the Atlanteans built a version of their original capital in different lands that came under their sway.

As far as more liberal interepretations of Plato's description are concerned, I think the Richat structure in the Sahara desert is a pretty good match, too. But I will add some comments on Cadiz shortly. As well as on those concepts that are most in accordance with Plato and put Atlantis into the Atlantic. Stay tuned!

No doubt ice can help you get from A to B really quick:

The way the kindle version was formatted is a bit awkward, nonetheless, it seems to be a cool book. May have more on this later.

Cool stuff! After I had checked out your first link, I started wondering if there may have been a link between the Cucuteni-Trypillia culture and the Indo-European language. Based on a quick search, I didn't find any direkt evidence for that, however, this sounds interesting: http://civilizationupgrade.com/language/into-the-origins-of-european-languages/ And quoting from your linked Wikipedia article on Old Europe (no, not in the way US president Bush used the term!): Colin Renfrew's competing Anatolian hypothesis suggests that the Indo-European languages were spread across Europe by the first farmers from Anatolia. Which brings us back to Çatal Hüyük and/or other sites in Anatolia (modern Turkey) that we may talk about more later.

That seems to refer to a civilization also mentioned in ancient Greek sources and that has become known under various names, a common one being Hyperborea. Some think of it as a civilization that even preceded the Atlantean one and may have 'seeded' it. Although going beyond the scope of this thread, that's a fascinating topic in its own right, and I intend to dedicate another thread to it in due time. I didn't know that book, but it looks interesting and I will download it to the kindle a dear friend once gave me right away. Thanks!

That would depend on the frequency and intensity of those fluctuation as they would impinge on the Atlantic Island. I appreciate your thoughts.

Quoting Flambas's aforementioned book on Atlantis: P.P. Flambas: Plato's Carribean Atlantis, kindle version, pos. 1966 Astonishingly, long before those Chinese sailors, Plato mentioned the American continent in his Critias - one of the very texts that also introduced Atlantis! (Emphasis is my own.)

Lovely - thanks!

It's something likes this - just bigger!

Today? Of course there are!

Perhaps the best so far - but still quite a stretch from what Plato so minutely describes in his dialogues. However, your mention of Cádiz (BTW Europe's oldest extant city) brought to mind that, according to Plsato, as Poseidon divides the countries of the Earth between his sons: “To his [Atlas’s] twin brother, who was born after him, and obtained as his lot the extremity of the (Atlantic) island towards the Pillars of Heracles, facing the country which is now called the region of Gades [today's Cádiz] in that part of the world, he gave the name which in the Hellenic language is Eumelus, in the language of the country which is named after him, Gadeirus.” So maybe there is a connection after all - thanks! Yes, this computer graphic is reminiscent of Plato's description of Atlantis' capital. Quite conjectural, but nice.

Alright, that one sent me on a search for references most of the evening. First, we must contemplate that the Atlantic Island described by Plato would most likely be located either in the area of the Azores (for which the Russian geologist N. Zhirov presented some evidence in his highly recommend, scholarly book Atlantis - Atlantology - Basic Problems) or in the Carribean (see Andrew Collins: Gateway to Atlantis, and especially P.P. Flambas: Plato's Carribean Atlantis). The latitude of the Azores is 37° 44', the latitude of Havanna, Cuba is 23° 8'. Next we have to consider that during the Quaternary Ice Age, even though temperatures fluctuated globally, the climate in the lower latitudes remained quite pleasant overall. E.g., regarding New Mexico, whose latitude of 34° 31' falls somewhere in between the aforementioned two locations: Julio L. Betancourt et al. - "Late Quaternary vegetation history of Rough Canyon, south-central New Mexico, USA", in: Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology 165 (2001) 71–95 And insofar the Atlantean civilization may have relied on the sea as a food source, this would seem to be relevant too: E. Seibold/W. H. Berger: The Sea Floor - An Introduction to Marine Geology, p. 243 It is exactly the Atlantic Island's mild geographical position that may have enabled a small part of humanity to thrive and develop far ahead of the rest, which was struggling to survive the harshness of the ice age.

I agree. An example for the kind of 'anachronism' you mention would be the ancient city of Jericho in Palestine. It has been assigned to the ninth millenium B.C., a time humanity was allegedly just emerging from Paleolithic primitivism. There was a monumental defensive complex found with a massive stone wall and tower that the excavator felt was strongly reminiscent of a grand medieval castle. The tower even has an interior stair-case of hammer-dressed stone steps as well as roof slabs. For another example, we might look to eigth millenium B.C. Anatolia (modern Turkey): Instead of the rustic villages that would match the conventional historical picture, excavations brought to light an immensely rich and luxurious city now known as Çatal Hüyük that abounds with religious art apparently three to four thousand years ahead of its time. In neither case have we got knowledge of any historical predecessor.

That's a good question, although not an easy one. As you know, there is still no hard evidence even for the existence of Atlantis (although there is plenty of circumstantial evidence that I propose to look at in this thread in the future), much less any confirmed data for its age. Now different representatives of esotericism (Blavatsky, Steiner, etc) have set forth various 'channelled' models of Atlantis, including its timeline. Alas, there is little agreement to be found among them! One source of clairvoyantly received data that I generally like to take a look at when it comes to such 'occult' historical topics is the material presented by the 'sleeping prophet' Edgar Cayce (1877-1945; in fact, I used to be a member of his organization ARE in Virginia Beach for a short while). Not least since Cayce made some remarkable prophecies regarding actual historical discoveries, including the dead sea scrolls eventually found in Qumran. Also, the information provided by Cayce often seems to fill in the blanks in confirmed historical knowledge rather nicely and in some cases provides us with quite sound working hypotheses. Not necessarily as far as all the given details are concerned, but at least in outline. That said, lacking additional evidence, I would not consider any such channelled information reliable - always take it with a grain of salt. Anyhow, FWIW, let's take a look now at what Cayce had to share on the history of Atlantis. To be perfectly honest with you, Cayce's scheme starts out with a statement not exactly geared towards inducing faith in a scientifically educated brain of the 21st century: For he suggests that humanity manifested directly out of a spiritual world in the form of five races (note: he said this at a time when term 'race' was not yet perceived as politically incorrect) in five different places, roughly around 10,500,000 years ago. I won't be going into further details of this somewhat dubious theory; suffice it to say that when the red people projected onto the Earthly plane, this occurred actually in Atlantis! Even if this should somehow turn out to be correct, it would still seem questionable to put the beginning of any culture on so early a date. The chronologically next mentioning of Atlantis in Cayce's trance session refers to a much later time, presumably around 100,000 BC. By then, humans (whose bodies were more ameba-like originally - i.e., again, if sleeping Cayce is to be trusted ) started 'solidifying' into the kind of beings we are so very familiar with today. So, within that framework, it may be a reasonable assumption that Atlantean culture commenced around that time as well. It is interesting to note that, according to Cayce, the destruction of Atlantis did not occur all at once but was the result of three catastrophes that occurred around 50,700 BC, 28,200 BC (identical with the Biblical deluge) and 10,600 BC. The latter date is particularly interesting because it coincides rather nicely with the proven impact of a comet that kind of rebooted the last glacial at a time when it had virtually ended. That additional, final glaciation epoch is called the Younger Dryas and lasted until about 9,600 BC - which is, interestingly enough, the date implied by Plato for the destruction of the Atlantean land! As an aside, a 19 miles wide impact crater of matching age has been discovered under a half-mile-thick Greenland ice sheet as recently as in 2018: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/nov/14/impact-crater-19-miles-wide-found-beneath-greenland-glacier Now while that comet impact effectuated a new period of glaciation of another approximately 1,000 years, its more immediate effect was an extended melting of the Arctic ice sheet - whose dramatic consequences were vividly described by Richard Firestone in his important book The Cycle of Cosmic Catastrophes (p. 144): As it so happens , approximately 10,600 BC is also the date of a global cataclysmic event as theorized by Graham Hancock in his well known book Fingerprints of the Gods, with the subsequent colonization of prehistoric Egypt by Atlantean settlers. The orientation of some of the so-called "star-shafts" in the Great Pyramid towards Orion constellation as well as the alignment of the Great Sphinx potentially towards Leo constellation rising on the Spring equinox seem to indicate that time. That said, Hancock in some of his subsequent publications also regards the second date - about 1,000 years later - as significant. Coming back to Cayce, bottom line is, if he was correct with his 'channelled' information in regards to the upheaval that led to Atlantis' ultimate destruction, his data regarding the two previous breakups might be trustworthy as well. Be that as it may, I will readily admit that I am not too comfortable with Cayce's theory of the creation of Man as outlined above. Granted, I too assume that human beings once entered this world essentially as spirits, however, I don't believe that their bodies were physically manifested out of the blue (as Cayce essentially suggest), but were the result of the genes of our ape-like ancestors being manipulated by those same non-physical entities desiring to incarnate on the Earth. This conception is more compatible with the conventional scientific theory of the creation of Man, while (quite literally) adding a spiritual dimension to it. Also, evolutionary biology suggests that red and yellow people are closely genetically related to each other, something that hard to explain if Cayce's conception of human origin was literally true. Coming back to the question when the Atlantean culture may have started: Given its comparatively high level of cultural and technological advancement - as testified by Plato and also as required by its supposed role as a mother culture from which some of the historically known advanced culture of antiquity were derived - we can safely assume that it must have existed at least thousands of years by the time the last glacial ended. If during those times of glaciation the Atlantic Island provided a climatically stable and resource-rich environment , its inhabitants could have developed at least a Bronze Age civilization thousands of years before similar known civilizations elsewhere on Earth. Any technological advances could subsequently have been transferred during contact with less developed surrounding cultures. The technology developed on Atlantis is a fascinating (and difficult!) topic in its own right, that we may well come back to later. In conclusion of this post, let us just briefly ponder on the initial colonization of the Atlantic Island. For it is quite unlikely that a human species would have evolved independently on an island out there in the ocean (leaving Cayce's jelly-like prehumans projecting onto the Earth directly from a spiritual plane out for once). We must consider then where its original settlers may have come from. Now Plato states that Poseidon was the founder of the Atlantean civilization. But he was just one of several gods who each went to a different part of the Earth to settle. Thus, this statement might describe a dispersal of several colonizing groups from an original culture yet preceding Atlantis! The populations of the various settled lands might have made individual group leaders the "gods" of their origin myths later. But since Plato describes indigenous people living on Atlantis already before Poseidon's arrival, it is possible that Poseidon was in truth a foreign cultural leader who travelled to the Atlantic Island with a group of followers who colonized it and intermarried with aforesaid indigenous people. Subsequent generations might then have deified Poseidon as the creator of their civilization.

You also have spiritually teachers continually telling you that the Universe can provide you with all that your heart desires. And I don't mean that in any depreciative manner, in fact, I believe in this truth myself. Did you ask yourself why that principle apparently is not working for you in this case?

There you go!

There is a French phrase quoted by Aleister Crowley: "Tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner" - to understand all is to forgive all. To what you have said, dear ET, I would add that a lack of knowledge (i.e. insight into a situation) causes one to act in a destructive or "evil" way in the first place.

In my opinion, the most sophisticated and comprehensive treatment of probability waves and the influence of consciousness on them has been presented by physicist "Dr. Quantum" Fred Alan Wolf. In brief, his theory proposes that any event is the result of the superposition of two quantum wave functions: the "offer wave" from the past and the "echo wave" from the future. And it is our mind's interaction with that "wave from the future" that let's us have a say in the events we are experiencing. Dr. Wolf was featured in the movie What the (Bleep) Do We Know and has published a number of books pertinent to aforesaid topic; among them, I would in particular recommend his titles Star Wave and Parallel Universes. As an aside, in the latter, he also proposes the interesting hypothesis that schizophrenics are in touch with parallel universes.

I agree that intent is the key ingredient. As far as the rest is concerned, different things seem to work for different people.