wangchungman

No. Not just by reading a text. You have to engage in the yoga procedures in the text. Yes, it is true that for the most part, one will need to be initiated by a master. This is because of the problem of self-doubt that persists when one engages on one's own. But in the Bon Dzogchen texts, like the "Heart Drops of Dharmakaya," and in the text called "The Six Lamps," there are yoga methods that one can do which the texts explain will result in self-initiation. "Heart Drops" specifically mentions self-initiation, "Six Lamps" does not. But they both refer to the same methods. Bon's transmission of Dzogchen is far more open. My feeling is to agree with them. If one is going to practice Trekcho only, I feel one will need an initiation because this experience is so subtle that a yogic method will not help to reveal it. It is for this reason that Vajrayana and all paths of transformation require initiation. However, Thogal is working with something concrete within the experience of embodiment, that being the entoptic lights. One can conceivably experience these without outside help. Pressing the eyes is one way. If one practices looking at these lights long enough, the experience of Trekcho will emerge within it, because that is the nature of these lights. They are already pure appearances whose nature is the three kayas. Whereas, in the path of transformation one is working with the channels of wisdom and samsara. The practices invite experiences that are starting out as samsaric. So unless one has the initiation, one will not be able to distinguish the pure and the impure.

You are mixing up the Ati system with the path of transformation that utilizes the defiled chakras. Third eye has nothing to do with Thogal. The channel in Thogal that goes from the heart to the eyes does not touch the brow chakra. The Kati channels are primordially pure, so they don't open or close. They don't have to be purified, as the chakras do. What the Thogal manuals are saying by the circle of light separating from between the eyebrows is that a light will appear as if it is manifesting between the eyes, but in front of the eyes. Not in the skull. Actually it is in the eyes. For Dzogchen practice having any particular chakra charge up and get energized is not desirable. For Dzogchen, the energy should dissipate right in its own place and should not gather and collect in any one place. For the brow chakra to become charged is therefore seen as a disorder to be adjusted with medicines, sky-gazing and such.

There are many Dzogchen texts that are very clear. If someone wants to understand one simply has to study them. One should receive an empowerment. Most of them will recommend that. But for example the Six Lamps describes a method of self initiation using yoga techniques. If you are one who simply wants to deny Dzogchen as a path or a reality, then I won't stop you. That's your prerogative.

Breath

It's an empowerment. It's like a very condensed retreat with a master. It makes everything very clear.

Stunned or startled awareness is like a bridge across to the unconditioned mind.

You have my sincerest sympathies. Don't worry. You and everyone else will eventually.

So you have the stats? No. It's logical.

1. no doubt/no truth 2. that wasn't so hard either

1. Everything is unreal 2. I'm sure. Wobbles stop eventually.

You need a teacher for that. It is introduced directly to perception.

Yes.

the two truths is part of the gradualist system; dzogchen goes beyond any truth

That is something that happens at death for someone who spends their life in retreat. I don't think I'm on that route.

I have gone through several of these teachings. I'm old. Those are vajra chains. The only "floaters" excluded as a first stage vision are the one's that are not luminous and shiny, namely the ones that look like a dead hangnail. In the first stage they literally float and swarm and swim. Then they come to rest and a few will stand out and be perfectly still. The blue field is also first stage, but also hangs around in the last stage. But not as spread out blue field. It has to form a circle. That's the second stage when the little circles start to form concentric circles and light up with colors. Then the third stage the mandalas of peaceful and wrathful deities start to appear inside the circles of colors. then he fourth stage the body dissolves into light. Tulku Urgyen explained for the highest practitioner there won't be rainbow colors but only blue circle of light. I checked this the Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche. Where you guys are going wrong is you can't think something appearing is the right one or good. You just have to hold the postures and gazes and let whatever happens to happen. It may or may not fit the pattern. The examples in the four visions are only examples. Many other things can happen. The point is that whatever appears is not generated by your ideas or imagination. They are just happening like a burp or fart.

This is stage one of togal.

If you can do all the material preparations in John Dee's system, you will have many visions and learn a lot. I am not someone who is going to practice a lot of repetitive things. I like this system because it gets you into a higher state of consciousness by just saying or even just imagining the words or letters. But, you have to prepare the table, the ring, the wax sigils, etc., So if you can do an art project you will experience very serious encounters. There are eastern systems that are similar to this in the sense of an invocation in the imagination that will directly put you into an encounter with experiences quickly as well. To sum up: Magic of a high order can 1) put you into a samadhi at the level of a master just by saying the words and performing the ritual; 2) allow you to experience all sorts of divine things like prophesy within that very session or in dreams; and 3) get you whatever you want. But you have to be very careful about this part, I found. If your wishes are tainted by desire, then you will reap a painful result. So it is important to do the invocations after ample prayers, confessions, altruistic aspirations, etc., to get one's karma situated in such a way that one's wishes will benefit the world.

IMHO A good magical system should have safeguards built in. I really admire what Lon Milo DuQuette has done to bring John Dee's system back to life. My limited experience with it is that preparations, names and calls establish the Magus in a solid meditative state so that ordinary petty weaknesses don't intrude and draw problems. If one has a good grounding by the use of excellent magical words, then there is no danger even in calling forth the eldest demons. I believe it takes a while to gain enough experience to discern which words are best.

I've been a spiritual tourist for a while. I have been to Dondrubling in Berkeley, CA. I found the folks to be pretty mainstream. Not the friendliest bunch. But I didn't notice any babies either. Many seemed eager to share and help me work on Yantra Yoga. I don't think, Ralis, you can generalize so broadly. My limited understanding of the texts is they are disjointed because you are supposed to rely on a teacher. That might be a something of a turnoff to some people. But I have never encountered anything serious that could be learned well by self-study, except for the rare genius I suppose. In my emails with Namkhai Norbu some years ago, he's friendly and a man of few words. He must have thousands of students by now so there are surely people of all kinds. The Lipman thing isn't so discouraging. He's Jewish by family heritage. It's normal for someone to keep that, especially a tradition as old as Judaism. It doesn't mean there is something wrong with Buddhism or "Lamaism" as you say. Kabbala also cannot be learned without transmissions from a teacher. Also there are many Lamas who are highly respected and have students who are teachers. In the Bay Area there is Gyatrul Rinpoche's group in Alameda. In the North Bay, there is Chagdud Tulku's people. And in Berkeley there is also Tarthang Tulku's people. As a side, intense devotion to the teacher is what is supposed to help a person get enlightened. I would think this is a highly personal subject. It doesn't seem fair to look down on someone for this reason. I believe Buddhism prescribes various avenues to enlightenment. One is devotion. Another is direct insight. I believe the idea in Buddhism is that there are so many different personalities out there, so because of his great compassion and intelligence, Buddha found thousands of ways to teach. It could be this one is not your cup of tea. But it is someone else's, and there is one for you too if you wanted that.

Illusion is what you are wrong about. The rest is reality.

I understand this feeling. I feel like the other person feels and that takes me away from how I feel. Then I don't know how I feel. I think this is the beginning of an advancement. We have to feel more fully how others feel without feeling lost. Perhaps we have to let go of ourselves even more and then we can feel more stable. I don't know.

I was surprised to read this racist remark. This is an unkind thing to say. It would appear you didn't understand anything about peace, love or compassion. I'm new here. So I guess you might have your reason and maybe there is a backstory. But me being an Easterner who grew up in the West, I find this comment to be mean and low class. Why does there have to be a White versus Yellow competition in this world?

Hey guys, What can I say about me? My name is Kevin. I've been into martial arts since I was a little boy. Taekwando at 6, Karate at 8-22. I did Renbukai in Sacramento. My sensei turned me on to Tao of Jeet Kun Do by Bruce Lee. I went to college and studied Wang Chung with Ken at Stanford. I'm a big fan of Bruce Lee and Ip Man. Love all the Bruce Lee movies and all the Ip Man biopics. I'm really into Wang Chung. I've gotten to a point in my life where I want to incorporate the spiritual aspects of the art. Thanks guys. Kev