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Aside from those possible problems with the characters themselves... what does being a 天下名士顯人 'illustrious and famous scholar of the world' (or whatever) have to do with the rest of chapter 28? Yes this is also good 樸散則為器 The freeness of the uncarved block gives it its capacity 聖人用(之) 則為官長 The wise man (returning always to the state of the uncarved block) is used as the head official (able to carry out all functions, as he is not divided/differentiated as a specific tool) 故大制不割 So it is said that "Great cutting/leadership does not harm/divide."

Yeah... I'm finding it hard to believe that anyone with the ability to write Chinese characters in the first place is going to confuse these! Pronunciation-wise: xi vs xian gu / yu vs ming Graphically, xi and xian have 1 similar (but not identical) component in common In xi, the left portion depicts hands grabbing at rope with a person/slave underneath In xian, the left portion depicts light shining on silk Aside from this, they are entirely different in composition and meaning, and not really similar in pronunciation... edit: Though I don't know about shorthand. Could they somehow have only written the left-hand rope/silk and the right-hand component that in both characters looks similar to ?

We've all been working at slightly different angles, but I'm hoping that what we've got comes together eventually Whilst I'm usually not quick to accept partial explanations of Laozi by later writers, the fact that Heshanggong and Wz and Zz all use similar text suggests to me that there's something in it Plausible... but both 'mistranscriptions' are pretty large errors...!

Today's Turks are not a part of what happened in 1915 any more than today's British are a part of the Opium War. To me, denying that it happened is the one way of directly associating oneself with it. As with the Holocaust, why deny it unless you harbour the same feelings your previous countrymen (the actual offenders) did? A modern Turk would do much better to admit that it happened, that it was wrong, but point out that they weren't actually alive when it happened!

Yes, well I was thinking that if we're interpreting on a rulership level, then we must infer the country & its people 2 more things: Firstly, Darkstar recently noted something that we seem to have overlooked here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pu_%28Daoism%29 And this makes sense, though... I don't know how it fits with the last line. When uncarved wood is cut up, it's turned into vessels; When the Sage is used, he becomes the Head of Officials. Truly, great carving is done without splitting up. (Henricks) Though the lines make sense individually, I don't understand how they make sense together..? (same goes for my own translation above, in fact) Secondly, Looking more vigorously at 散 and 器: 散 http://www.zdic.net/z/1a/xs/6563.htm free, natural, random, scattered, useless, break up, distribute, dissipate 器 http://www.zdic.net/z/17/xs/5668.htm utensil, capacity, organ, talent So we might translate: 樸散則為器 The 'uselessness' / naturalness / freeness of the uncarved block gives it its usefulness / capacity 聖人用(之)則為官長 The wise man (being the uncarved block) is used as the head official (the brain of the whole body) * 故大制不割 So it is said that "Great cutting does not divide." * 官 also meaning 'organ' -- we see this meaning in another Daoist text, in Zhuangzi's Cook Ding: "官知止而神欲行 (Brain/sensory) knowledge stops and the spirit goes as it will"

You mean, it would be better to explicitly refer to "the country"? Yes, I think we hit the same point: The best rulership is not dividing :: Not being discriminatory is a virtue

知其榮守其辱 Know honour but protect disgrace * 為天下谷 Be the valley of things ** 為天下谷 Being the valley of things 常德乃足 One is filled with De 復歸於樸 And returns to the uncarved block *** 樸散則為器 A carved block becomes a tool 聖人用之 Which the wise man can use 則為官長 And become ruler 故大制不割 So it is said that "Great cutting does not divide." **** * in ZZ, this is combined with "Know white but protect black" ("Know white [purity], protect disgrace") -- another hint that they are different ways of getting the same point across? ** without effort, valleys move clean fresh water from the open mountains to the lowest levels, where the water dirties but is able to nourish. They even the balance. *** returns not to being the uncarved block but to examining it for use -- in other words, he finds a blank slate -- clear and full of potential **** both 制 and 割 use the 刀 knife radical, which to my mind is a clear play on words -- in other words, though, "Great rulership/creativity does not divide/harm."

Because of the reason Taomeow started the topic in the first place... ... to make things a little less black and white I wasn't suggesting that those symbols should be the ones..they were just a few I found and thought fun. The eye idea is cool.

An odd and probably very silly idea, but what about a small selection of (relatively abstract) symbols? e.g. ✪ ★ ☑ ☯ ✿ ♞ ☀ ☂ ♫ For some of which, meaning would be straightforward (e.g. ☑ to show acknowledgement) but for others, meaning might be interpretable depending on the content of each post.. Nobody need get their feelings hurt, but different types of appreciation/acknowledgement could be implied edit: for example, in this case I would give myself a nice flower for a flowery (but useless) idea...

Is that direct from a translation or are you paraphrasing? (I can't find it but would be interested in looking at the Chinese)

Maybe this has been brought up here already.. but it seems worth looking at either way.. http://ctext.org/zhuangzi/tian-xia#n3017

Good work. When my brain is functioning at full capacity I will try and contribute something useful too.. we can crack it wide open..

Me too

Oop As TT says, I was just asking if we should consider ch.52, and posted the relevant portion. Though forgot to paste translation, sorry. Not intended to baffle! Yeah... perhaps we can learn something about both of them Well...so we can be fairly sure that it means know...protect... but I still can't figure out how one might translate the 3 lines of ch.28 to mean anything particularly useful...?

What about ch.52 天下有始，以為天下母。既得其母，以知其子，既知其子，復守其母，沒身不殆

No, the "Like this" button doesn't work in the thread you mention. I have nothing worthwhile to add to that conversation, but would like to say how brilliantly written, and touching, much of it is. You deserve a much larger audience. And yes... if it were implementable, more than one button would be really useful...

I am primarily a hip-hop head, but listening to Trium Virum right now and enjoying it. On another note..you're not actually Link...

I didn't really think you were taking aim at me as a hipster dufus I'm not sure what qualifies as hipster but pretty sure I'm just a plain old dufus! Yes, the chapters you mention are a couple I've had the most trouble understanding.

Hùn tùn - 馄饨 - ...the edible version..

Yeah. We have good translations for the Yiwenzi and received text. It's the MWD that I'm not sure about. Will edit them in now.

Maybe a bit of comparison? Yiwenzi interpretation: 「民不畏死，如何以死懼之。」凡民之不畏死，由刑罰過。刑罰過，則民不賴其生；生無所賴，視君之威末如也。刑罰中，則民畏死；畏死，由生之可樂也。知生之可樂，故可以死懼之，此人君之所宜執，臣下之所宜慎 "When people are not scared of capital punishment, what use is threatening them with it?" Normally, people are not scared of capital punishment because the prosecution of it is misapplied (to the innocent). The prosecution being misapplied, people do not care for their livelihood. The livelihood being not cared for, the king’s might becomes powerless. However, when the prosecution is on target, then the people become scared of capital punishment; being scared of it, they gladly care for their livelihood. Since they enjoy their livelihood, the capital punishment becomes a valid threat to them. Thusly, the people and the king become cooperative, and the ministers exercise caution. Received: 民不畏死，奈何以死懼之？若使民常畏死，而為奇者，吾得執而殺之，孰敢？常有司殺者殺。夫司殺者，是大匠斲；夫代大匠斲者，希有不傷其手矣 The people do not fear death; to what purpose is it to (try to) frighten them with death? If the people were always in awe of death, and I could always seize those who do wrong, and put them to death, who would dare to do wrong? There is always One who presides over the infliction death. He who would inflict death in the room of him who so presides over it may be described as hewing wood instead of a great carpenter. Seldom is it that he who undertakes the hewing, instead of the great carpenter, does not cut his own hands! Mawangdui: A □□□□□□□，奈何以殺懼之也？若民恆是死，則而為者吾將得而殺之，夫孰敢矣？若民□□必畏死，則恆有司殺者。夫伐司殺者殺，是伐大匠斲也，夫伐大匠斲者，則□不傷其手矣 B 若民恆且○不畏死，若何以殺懼之也？使民恆且畏死，而為畸者，□得而殺之，夫孰敢矣！若民恆且必畏死，則恆又司殺者。夫代司殺者殺，是代大匠斲。夫代大匠斲，則希不傷其手 There are numerous differences between YWZ's interpretation and the actual chapter in the WB/MWD, and some differences between WB and MWD-A. Though MWD-B and WB line up. I'm a bit more confused.

OK. Your explanation makes sense (as far as this gaping hipster can understand it) Are you suggesting that every chapter can be interpreted thusly? Or a select few?

I would quite like an explanation as to why you think it is against capital punishment...? edit: I'm not saying it's definitely not against capital punishment... I just don't understand how it is It seems to be suggesting that capital punishment is useful and that the role of executioner is an important one...

I see you've put this in Daoist Discussion and not the Textual Study forum, so I'll try and refrain from analysing the Chinese too much. Most translations I've looked at (Feng, Addiss, Legge) agree more or less with the one above anyway. There seem to be a couple of really straightforward interpretations: -- Leave the masters of their crafts to do their thing; they know best how to proceed -- The state needs someone to execute criminals so that the people are afraid and don't transgress