dust

Wu, Feng, and Henricks are also used in discussions quite a bit (on here anyway). In my opinion, read as many as you can, and never pick a favourite. None of them are good enough. It's not possible to be. If you haven't already, check out: http://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html

Why not?

Western calligraphy, though beautiful, is generally very stiff and formal. What I love about Chinese calligraphy is that (in some styles) one is allowed to, within certain structural confines, express oneself with vigorous abandon. by the "Madman" Mi Fu http://www.chinaonlinemuseum.com/calligraphy-mi-fu.php

Yes. Historically I've had many issues with accepting things the way they are. Certainly I pick and choose. In some situations I feel the need to force change. It's been a problem, I guess, in some cases. Is it always the way to go, though? Should we try to accept everything as Master Yu did, no matter how painful or alien or "unnatural"? Are we all even capable of being so jovial in the face of hardship? Even without going into unlikely situations like the one above, or cases of torture and slavery etc, are there not some (perhaps seemingly mundane) situations in our lives that we shouldn't accept, if we want to be freer in the long term? Or things that we can't truly accept deep down, but might end up pretending that we are?

Fair points

I agree. A life-long criticism of me from others has been that I think too much. For quite a while now, the better part of my free time has been spent teaching myself not to think so much. Just run, just jump. It's wonderfully freeing. So I wasn't suggesting, like so many do, that we should all rely purely on science and smarts to be happy. But it's important to me -- knowing that the specific language of a text or translation, and the ideas contained within a book, can be incredibly influential and potentially damaging -- to study any text fairly precisely before believing and putting into practice everything it has to say. And when you speak of people focusing intellectually rather than experientially on whatever Taoist or Buddhist texts... well, I also wonder how people would discuss them on an internet forum without the use of intellect.

Someone getting mugged? Depends. I'd probably run away. Am I going to risk my life for a stranger's purse? Could be me next. Call the police from a safe distance. I'm not against violence, per se. Change the above scenario to someone getting raped, and yes, I would certainly run in there and rip off the rapist's cock. But not out of some social sense of justice and righteousness -- out of a natural desire not to have people get raped...! My natural response to the Hebdo murders, if I were related to the victims, would be to find the killers and rip out their throats. Again, not out of a sense of "justice", but from my inborn desire for personal retribution. Cows and dogs and lions and all manner of animals kill to protect their young, their loved. For justice? And what do you think the Hebdo cartoonists were acting out of? What do you think their killers were acting out of? It's not Tao, it's not goodness, it's not kindness. It's justice, righteousness... these people who scream "I have a right to free speech! I'll kill for my rights!" and "You have no right to draw the Prophet! I'll kill you for blasphemy!"... they have lost all grip on reality. Justice, to be justified, to be righteous, righteousness -- nothing more than excuses for feeble ideals. We need to get past that shit. Therefore when Tao is lost, there is goodness When goodness is lost, there is kindness When kindness is lost, there is justice When justice is lost, there is ritual Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty, the beginning of confusion.

Though I agree with the thrust of TT's comment, and the meaning behind his translation, left to my own devices I wouldn't actually translate the ZZ section precisely as he did. Words can have many meanings, and ZZ is well known for playing with them. If we accept that this is authentic ZZ, then... 復 = (originally) leave and return to the city = return = reply = begin again = again = repeatedly 命 = (oiginally) give orders = regulations = limit // life = destiny = fate and knowing what we do of prior use of the term 復命 itself (i.e. in Analects etc), 復命 could potentially mean, "repeating / returning to life (one's nature)" (traditionally accepted meaning in DDJ & ZZ ?) "repeating / returning to one's fate" "returning one's orders" (responding to a superior) (meaning in Analects) We should also note the character 摇, meaning to wave or shake. I think it's better read together: 復命搖作

If the fearless doesn't try to "accomplish" anything, he has no need for love or hate, and terrorists and bankers are of no consequence to him. Despite the quote from you in that last comment, I don't actually necessarily agree that anyone must be fearless, or respond with love to any particular person or situation. We must respond with our natural emotions, because that's all we have. And if our natural emotion is hate, we must figure out what to do with that hate. We don't necessarily have to kill people with it, and certainly hatred is of no use if one wishes to see the world happier and less full of fear and hatred.

What about, "The fearless responds to violence with love." ?

Agreed that Watson's translation isn't great here. I hope you're not ignoring the section on that page that defines 复命, in Taoist terms, as "returning to (sb's) original condition" !! Secondly, 復命 does appear in Analects basically as you define it (reporting to a senior)... but if we're to play with the idea that this is also what it means in Taoism, we should look at how early this term came to be used in Taoist texts.. And... regarding the LZ and ZZ chapters you list, we must also note some things: The second half of ch.16 doesn't exist in the Guodian. I would suggest it was one of the late additions to the DDJ, but even allowing that the GD writers just left it out on purpose, the text of first half of the GD chapter is also very different from the later versions. So I think it's quite possible that the term 復命 was never in the Laozi at all to begin with. Again, this being from the Miscellaneous Chapters, I'd very much doubt it's "authenticity" (as something written by Zhuang Zhou himself) as a later addition. Either way, we have no evidence that the term 復命 existed in these texts, or Taoist lore generally, prior to the MWD (unless we have other evidence). However, if we take the 2 received chapters at face value, in context, after all that... I do agree with your basic translation of ZZ

You say they "should" fail... though there is a part of me that enjoys revenge stories immensely, and yearns for the blood of those who some might perceive as unjust and evil, there is also part of me that doesn't believe in "should". There is only what happens. And if you want a certain result, striving and pushing for justice won't necessarily help matters. Even on TTB this isn't particularly commonplace in socio-political discussions, but I'm just going to quote Laozi again, as I believe that there is some great wisdom in there: Therefore when Tao is lost, there is goodness When goodness is lost, there is kindness When kindness is lost, there is justice When justice is lost, there is ritual Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty, the beginning of confusion. I'm not suggesting that you should be kind to the bankers...just that demanding "justice" usually -- and historically we have much evidence for this -- ends up in a vicious cycle of blame and hatred. I won't be a part of it. And besides all that, in the end, nobody really gives a shit. The vast majority of people, as long as they have their iPhone and Audi and shopping excursions on Saturdays, are quite content with the status quo.

I love art. I feel that there could be more art-related stuff on TTB... Calligraphy in both China and Japan has been influenced by Taoism and Chan/Zen, and as an artform can be - in my opinion - a wonderful representation of the harmony / simplicity that many followers of the Way are seeking. In fact, I believe that practicing calligraphy - as with many other crafts - can be a great aid in achieving stillness of the mind, or perhaps even union with Tao. One doesn't have to learn how to butcher an ox. the great master Huai Su 怀素's Treatise on Calligraphy 論書帖 by the wonderfully talented KisaragiChiyo Japanese saying (proverb) "Ku areba Raku ari"　『苦あれば、楽あり』 "After all the bad things, good ones come"

I get what you're saying. And take my last comment with a pinch of salt. We do need to look past what we think we know -- this in my opinion is absolutely necessary, and this honest searching is the main problem the majority of people face. It's something I'm facing all the time. But I have an innate distrust of anyone claiming to have some special kind of knowledge, especially when they're claiming that it's hidden in a book like the Laozi -- something that's been dissected continuously for centuries, and something which, in my opinion, does not reflect the ideas in that quote you posted very much at all.

No, of course, everyone's got it wrong... only a handful of living people throughout history have been blessed with Laozi's wonderful secrets, and now only a handful of people can possibly open us to 'enlightenment'. But this long-lost ancient knowledge can now be yours for only $49.99!

disclaimer: of course, I understand what Brian means, and I'm sure I and many others probably do over-analyze many things..

Can you separate your experiences from your intellect? Everything humans do is intellectual. Or is working toward 'enlightenment' nothing but a process of self-lobotomization?

Curious what people here think about this. ... especially interested to know what our resident pulse diagnosis people have to say! As for me... as well as the happiness that comes with seeing people happy to be alive, and being very impressed by the technology, I get another feeling too. Kind of...wondering how sensible it is to be forcing very sick people into life, when there are millions of other people procreating as I type this, filling the world up with more and more of us... http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/nstv/2012/03/man-with-no-pulse-how-turbines-can-replace-a-heart.html I find it interesting that this bit of info is left out of many articles.

"All this has happened before, and will happen again.. again... again........" (Battlestar Galactica)

Mm, yes.. good. I like. Builds directly from reality itself. This is why I would not call it a religion, and why I no longer tend to compare it with any theistic religions. A religion requires blind faith, ritual, and obedience. Learning what Laozi and Zhuangzi et al have to teach us, as learning all that science has to teach us, requires only a faith in oneself.

After months of hearing about him, I'm still not sure as to what his methods "do" -- what are these results that people speak of (whether they're real or not)? Maintaining general health? Cultivating energy? Being happy? Or something "more"?

Yes... well, it's all connected, isn't it? As I see it, many people are intensely afraid, and it's (often) that fear that feeds the greed you speak of. It's the same fear that drives so many people to kill in the name of religion, or country, or "honour" (rather than out of necessity or simple greed)... and I for one can say that it was that same fear that drove me to Laozi and Zhuangzi and Buddha -- the need to understand myself/the universe better..which modern science wasn't entirely helpful for

^^^Not always. Not all cultures, not all times and not all individuals. There is truth in what you are saying (especially looking at the last few hundred years) but you are generalizing. Though I agree that it's a generalization, it does very much seem that the overall direction we're headed as a species is one of total domination of nature -- or, at least, the desire of the total domination of nature. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that most people I have ever met are quite happy to... if not intentionally destroy the Earth's natural processes, allow them to be destroyed or subjugated by so-called "necessary" human activities. By and large, I think the Way of Man is indeed aggression towards nature. We see ourselves as almost entirely separate from it, and "better" than it, and we fear it... People who "follow" the Way of the Way, though, see that we're not separate from it, that we're not "better" than it, and that there's nothing to fear.

England! Where the smackheads jackin' up Crackheads crackin' up You're back up or backin' up? You'll leave with your hands cuffed Po-po bustin' blocks, Old folk punchin' clocks Yo it don't fuckin' stop Police stoppin' me with the P.O.T. Race hate is growin' so their votin' for the BNP Brits in Guantanamo, dreamin' of bein' free Fuck this country, it ain't doin' shit for me! Look at the history books, peep the bloodshed Karma is coming, you'll see the streets run red RedRum! That's the way that the money's made The Church of England invested in the slave trade Trace it back to the bank where you put your wage Built on the blood of slaves and stolen sugar cane England! And there'll be toil for the royal blood Spillin' on the soil where they're drillin' for the oil Got us killin' for the buck, but we don't give a fuck Nobody wanna work, we just wanna live it up Bring a cup, fill it up With the blood sweat and tears too I got no love for these ideals you adhere to Dear England, please confess your sins now I see police tape, when I'm takin' my bins out A dead baby got dropped down the rubbish chute Please don't bum me out, cause I just bunned a zoot Don't look at me funny blood, it's the fuckin' truth! You don't believe me, I guess it's too much for you A girl got abducted, and chopped up in Catford Racists with ice-picks? That shit is backward The news is confusin' - it's all manufactured Pop-propaganda, political actors Political factions and critical factors Get kidnapped and sympathise with your captors Trapped in the capital, death before dishonour Troops terrorised by suicide bombers And I wanna vomit, cause they're blowin' up buses It's rough in the streets, kids growing up cussin' Get crushed in the rush hour Police have got too much power, now they move like a menace Ask Jean Charles De Menezes in the heavens They put seven in his head and sent him back to the essence They got us livin' in fear You get treated like a criminal if you're Muslim with a beard 24 hour drinkin', I'm sippin' a beer But some don't know their limits it's a little severe The liquor is here, the drugs are here The football thugs are here, you could get mugged in here So plug your ear if you don't wanna hear the screams From the dungeon to the Huddersfield of dreams I feel the heat of Big Brother's eyes on my back He's watchin' how I move and the way that I act He's watching what I read and the products that I buy My bank balance? That's the price of the property rise My political allegiance? I'm angry! I didn't register my Oyster Card, you can't track me ID's compulsory, they got a back door You're forced to apply when you renew your passport It's hardcore, but that's life in England And it goes for the whole United Kingdom And I still got love for the place where I'm livin' But right now they're ain't nothin' great about Britain

Not YT, but close enough. http://www.tudou.com/albumplay/4W1-_CJjJwo/hq23f6x1mOs.html 能听懂普通话的可能会喜欢哦 The Chinese speakers might like this. A 43-episode "epic legendary drama" from mainland China, called 铁梨花 Tie Li Hua. I got hooked on it by accident when it first came out a few years ago, and am currently rewatching it because I love it. Set during the civil war, it's a fictional account of a peasant girl taken as the 5th wife of a warlord, and follows the better part of her life. It is, of course (because most Chinese TV is), full of melodrama, over-acting, and a rather unlikely story. But what isn't these days? Western TV is chock-full of ridiculousness masquerading as great drama. It has an array of wonderful characters and an ambitious, intriguing plot. Suspension of disbelief is a must, I think (but then, if you want something real you can just go outside and roll in the mud. That's really real.)