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明道女孛 The bright way seems hazy, 遲道女曼 The slow way seems fast, 進道若退 The way forward seems to retreat GD 25 (WB 41) 失道而後德 When the Way is lost, there is virtue, 失德而後仁 When virtue is lost, there is kindness, 失仁而後義 When kindness is lost, there is justice, 失義而後禮 When justice is lost, there is ritual; 夫禮者忠信之薄而亂之首 Ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty, the beginning of confusion WB 38 Though some of my opinions on the Laozi are a little controversial, perhaps, I do agree with much of what it says. I'd say all this talk of justice is... not helpful.

Frankly, I don't know that either Hebdo or the gunmen have very much to do with the larger picture. It wasn't just the Hebdo offices, but people at a Jewish market and a random civilian (park jogger) who were attacked. Seems to me like they're attacking based on what they believe will most easily cause both radicalization among the young French/European Muslim population and fear and hate-mongering among everyone else. It's a divide-and-conquer tactic, not purely an attack on freedom of expression. Clearly, if freedom of expression were really the issue, dozens of people wouldn't have been arrested in recent days for simply saying things the French government didn't like. On another note, I can't believe that, on an ostensibly Taoist forum, your general POV isn't getting more support. Seems like everyone just wants to kill Muslims.

I'm impressed at how "prophetic" his words are -- given how much the world has changed, it doesn't seem like anything has really changed. Plus ça change plus c'est la même chose.. Not sure I understand the terms liberal or conservative anymore. I think they're just more ways of needlessly dividing people.

If you read even a few of the chapters, it should become clear that some don't work as allegories. See GD 16 (WB 57) for an example. Of course, some can be seen in parallel and work on many levels.. but some don't. I also believe that there can be a huge difference between running the state and "running" the human being...

Today: Michael Jackson Brother Ali Master and Commander soundtrack Marie "Queenie" Lyons Jason Mraz and some Chinese pop

I think one area we (you and I) differ is in identification. I do not, though I live in the UK, identify myself in any way as part of this "we" or "us" that you speak of (which is, I assume, a collective composed roughly of USA & UK). I identify, perhaps, with like-minded people around the world who wish to see people stop creating and encouraging division and destroying our beautiful planet with their "forward thinking" or "backward thinking"... all these bizarre notions of principle and progress are absolute nonsense. I feel that the only way to "win" against extremism (Islamic or Western or other) is simply to ignore it and try to be a thoughtful, balanced person. Most people in Western society are not, in actuality, very thoughtful or balanced. I didn't train any Iraqis. I didn't declare war on Iraq. I have no vested interest in any present war (other than as a human who hates seeing other humans suffer). I neither agree nor disagree with the wars "our" nations have declared, but I do believe that if a country uses a certain principle to justify an action, they should use that principle universally or have their action/principle exposed as invalid/inconsistent. I'm pretty sure that Blair and Bush and Cameron and Obama are as guilty of crimes against humanity as any Islamic terrorist. Hussein was a very bad man and Iraq was in a very bad state before the war. But the people of Iraq, as far as I remember, were not pleading for assistance... and "we" "helped" them anyway. The people of Nigeria are dying in the thousands, and they are pleading for assistance. And "we" are ignoring them, choosing instead to whine about free speech even as we prevent others around us from actually saying whatever the fuck they want. There are entire villages being wiped out in Nigeria and Sudan and South Sudan and humans being murdered all the time in many other places around the world, and there is almost nothing ordinary citizens in those areas can do about it. I feel no personal obligation to go and fight for them, but anyone who sees the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as a justified collective effort should feel an obligation to get their country going and do something. But instead they complain about free speech as if they're not free to talk shit all day long. (This isn't a personal attack on you, A. It got away from me a bit towards the end there...just.. apparently needed to let some feelings out..)

Let's not forget, though, that the very same is true of the other Abrahamic religions. The recent Paris attacks don't confuse or alarm me nearly as much as other recent events. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/nigerias-forgotten-massacre-2000-slaughtered-by-boko-haram-but-the-west-is-failing-to-help-9970355.html Now, I don't know if "the West" has any obligation to help, but we felt like we did in Iraq and Afghanistan, didn't we? Or...wait...is there a political agenda behind all of this?

Aha.. that explains the horse. I hadn't connected it with the zodiac... just figured someone likes horses...

freedom of expression (party 1) + freedom of expression (party 2) = enmity, war freedom of expression (party 1) + freedom of belief (party 2) = enmity, war freedom of belief (party 1) + freedom of belief (party 2) = enmity, war no freedom of expression or belief = oppression, war

dawei thanks for this. I'm finally getting around to reading it today. About halfway through, and she's basically confirming everything I've learned (on here and through my own study), which is great. Very interesting in parts. Would that I'd read it 4 or 5 months ago...! But I'm also realizing that it's all just a summary of other scholars' views so far... an essay about books about a text... I wonder when others will start releasing their own translations? Speaking of which, my own translation (of all preceding TYSS) is ostensibly complete. Every chapter is accounted for. I just need to go back and look each one over again. And again. And maybe one more time after that...

The overall meaning is the same, though, right? i.e. you will need an executioner, but don't be like Ned Stark and DIY And if he's saying that an executioner is necessary, he's most certainly advocating direct interference in people's lives, right? An example of why I believe that many of these chapters were added later on. There's no way that Laozi as found in the Guodian -- even with all his advice about rulership and war -- would have added some chapter about the necessity of (public?) execution

That all? No fanfare? No red carpet?

Good translation. I'm not usually convinced that what Wenzi says in reference to Laozi actually has anything to do with what is being talked about in the Laozi chapter itself.. and this is no exception. Chapter 9 makes no mention of war, and I feel is one of those chapters offering a more general piece of advice... but what is said in this Wenzi chapter makes sense in itself, so... doesn't really matter, does it? Could be as a result of pride, greed, attachment to an ideal, or whatever... there are many reasons people go to war and almost none of them are acceptable. Modern leaders could take note.

Excellent article. Thanks CT. Being in this mildly depressed state myself for a number of months now (and many times in the past), I have already started to discover that this particular state of mind has been helpful in deconstructing my belief system and being quite honest with myself about myself and the world around me. I wasn't sure if I was just imagining things (looking for a positive aspect to the situation even if there wasn't one in reality) but this article makes some very good points, and I'm going to take some of it on board and see if I can't find even more equilibrium. To Liminal and others wary of confusing "true depression" with what's mentioned in the article, I can only suggest that we don't get too caught up in definitions. Clearly Traleg has understood a certain mindset, as he's written an article that does resonate with some (like me). And he very clearly asks the reader not to confuse what he's talking about with the extreme depression that some experience. The reader should be able to make a distinction, right?

Love the West Wing stuff. I've been meaning to watch it for years but keep getting sidetracked. As far as the second bit... I'm not a fan of the terms "First World" and "Third World", especially in the context you just put them in. Talking strictly economically, it can be an easy way to identify the richest and poorest countries by putting them in the top or bottom third of economic power, but we shouldn't confuse this even a tiny bit with political or social situations. Yes, there is a great overlap a lot of the time, but there's also no true causal link. Putting all "Third World" people under the sub-heading "Politically extreme and unstable, and culturally perverse" is a great error. And assuming that all "First World" countries and their wonderful rule of law actually truly serves to respect universal human rights? Not convinced. In my opinion, anyway...

I missed most of the conversation. I was going to jump in with a little post about how the Muslims I've met have mostly been quite lovely (which is true) and that Islam doesn't promote violence... but then I read chapter 9. http://quran.com/9 http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/Quran/9/index.htm Mushrikun: the disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah, idolaters, polytheists, pagans, etc http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/Quran/contra/free.html I hadn't realised quite how much encouragement to violence (against non-Muslims) there is in the Qu'ran. Kinda scary to read, knowing that there are people out there taking it all quite seriously. Of course, the same violent scary stuff is equally present in the Torah / Old Testament. The only real difference is that most people these days who aren't Muslim live in places where it's more acceptable to mock religion than follow it. Which is great, though we then tend to blindly follow something else instead. Everyone has their principles.

If we're referring to the recent Paris attacks, wouldn't both the gunmen and the Hebdo guys be guilty of a passionate intensity?

Twas a good answer, but I still think that 使 + 民 = make/cause the people Sorry again for the obnoxious response before. Thinking I know it all...

http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html This is something I've felt to be the case for a long time now, but hadn't really realized was a viable belief. I've never shared with anyone my feeling that being a hunter-gatherer would be far preferable to living in a flat in the city and working 9-5.. because I knew that everyone I've ever met would laugh and call me a fool. I suppose that our society's foundational beliefs are based on the idea that what we have now is necessarily better than what they had before. Constant "progress". We live longer, we're more powerful, there are more of us. How can that mean we're not better? Well... I have now accepted my belief that modern human society is an evil monster.

Wow. Sorry for the bluntness, but... if you want an honest, logical, fruitful discussion, I think you need to stop selectively ignoring things you don't like. What you're saying: 1. Doesn't make sense. A ruler who hides himself from the masses also leads by example? How? How does this work???? 2. Is not supported by the text. 常使民無知無欲 Constantly makes the people without knowledge and without desire

If men are not afraid to die, It is no avail to threaten them with death. If men live in constant fear of dying, And if breaking the law means that a man will be killed, Who will dare to break the law? There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand. Yeah... I overlooked this one...

其政悶悶，其民淳淳 其政察察，其民缺缺 When the country is ruled with a light hand, the people are simple When the country is ruled with severity, the people are cunning

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