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This is absolutely not something that I feel 'qualified' to give advice on, but I'm going to anyway. I know and have known a number of people who have one or more deep and troubling issues which, were they able to resolve the issue, they would be able to live a much happier life, and offer those around them more opportunity for happiness. Issues like this don't go away with a good conversation and moment of 'enlightenment'. If they can be resolved at all, it takes a lot of reflection on both the self and the 'outside' world, requiring a lot of honesty, and this is not something that can be forced, and it takes a lot of time. The only one who can be responsible for resolving such issues is the person who holds them, but they surely benefit enormously in the meantime if they have people around them who care and are willing to show it. My question would be, do I love her enough to stick around for the next 5, 10, or 50 years supporting her in the hope that one day she will be able to resolve this stuff and allow us to both move on? And am I willing to give up an alternative, quite possibly more free and enjoyable life, in order to risk that chance? Either way, you're going to wonder "What if...?"

(adopts Aziz Ansari voice) Noooooooooooo!!! (not expecting anyone to get the reference) Yeeeeess! Actually I think this part is worth quoting further: I don't think this -- especially the highlighted blue bit -- is at odds with Laozi: 天下皆智之為也亞已 When beauty is known as beauty, ugliness is born 皆智善此丌不善已 When good is known, this gives birth to not-good. 又亡之相生也 Life and death give birth to each other, 難惕之相成也 Difficult and easy complete each other, 長短之相形也 Long and short determine each other, 高下之相浧也 High and low surpass each other, 音聲之相和也 Voice and sound harmonize each other, 先後之相墮也 Front and back follow each other; 是以聖人居亡為之事 As the wise man lives without acting, 行不言之教 And teaches without talking, 萬勿作而弗怠也 Life does without beginning, 為而弗志也 Acts without ambition, 成而弗居 Succeeds and does not dwell; 夫唯弗居也是以弗去也 Not dwelling and not leaving are the same I think that Zhuangzi says very similar things in a more roundabout, humorous, playful, spontaneous, sprawling way.

Yes.. you're right. I should have got there much sooner! I blame Legge.. On that note, we can confirm that LZ and ZZ's idea of Dao is very much identical...

Lin YT translates: For Tao has its inner reality and its evidences

Yeah.. for certain, their metaphysical idea of Tao is very very similar Your first few posts summed up nicely many of their differing ideas on how far one can 'know' it, and how to apply knowledge of it Might we say that ZZ's ideas are more sprawling? I get a definite stream-of-consciousness vibe when reading him, where one story will jump right into another, not-entirely-related, one. And there are a few bits that seem to... not contradict, but not entirely coalesce, either..

In the previous bit, ZZ's been talking about the ancient man and how to be a model for all men. When he mentions Dao, next, it's a related but separate 'paragraph'. It starts with, word for word: For/so Dao have qing have xin Legge translates: This is the Dao; there is in It emotion and sincerity Watson translates: The Way has its reality and its signs I'm not sure about either, really... in many ancient texts such as Xunzi, Mengzi, and Shuowen, qing means "good will" in others such as Liji and Huainanzi, qing means "mood" or "feeling" in Sun Tzu, 兵之情主速 is translated as "Rapidity is the essence of war" or "The situation of wars is decided promptly" Perhaps we should see what other Chinese-readers have to say...?

It seemed like C T and I were about to turn an unrelated topic into a discussion of the merits of Jet Li and Donnie Yen, so thought I'd post here. My favourite kung fu / wushu / martial arts movie guys from China include Jackie Chan, Jet Li, Carter Wong, Bruce Lee, Donnie Yen C T mentioned a bunch of other guys, some of whom I don't even know by name (but possibly by face), including Wang Yu, David Chiang, Ti Lung, Chen Kuan Tai, Wu Jing (Jacky Wu), Sammo Hung, Yuen Biao Anyone else into intensely and meticulously choreographed fight scenes featuring Asian people? For me, now, the coolest stuff is happening elsewhere (Tony Jaa in Thailand, Iko Uwais in Indonesia..), but China will always be the motherland, and Jackie my eternal favourite. C T, why so big on Donnie and Wu Jing?

An excellent explanation of why Jackie is the best that ever did it (and he is...make no mistake..)

Some excellent overviewing. At times I see them as sharing a philosophy, with some important individual differences; at other times I see them as having very different philosophies, but with a few important similarities. For my part, some text that illustrates a parallel (and difference?): Laozi 25 (first few lines and last line from the Guodian) 又壯蟲成 Something great gave way to all form; 先天地生 Born before Heaven and Earth, 敚綉蜀立不亥 Morphing and hazy, singular and limitless, 可以為天下母 It is the mother of all things (... ...) 道灋自然 The Way is of itself Laozi 37 (from Guodian) 衜恒亡爲也 The Way is eternally wu wei 侯王能支之 A ruler can lean on it, 而萬勿將自 And life will take care of itself, 而欲作 Doing as it will; 將貞之以亡名之僕 Pure like a nameless servant, 夫亦將智足 And this will be enough; 智足以朿 Enough to have peace, 萬勿將自定 Life will steady itself Laozi 41 (last few lines from Guodian) 大方亡禺 A great square has no corners, 大器曼成 A great capacity emerges slowly, 大音祗聖 A great sound goes low; 天象亡坓 The shape of Heaven has no form, 道褒亡名 The Way is great and nameless Zhuangzi 大宗師 The Great Master (excerpt) 夫道 For in the Way, 有情有信無為無形 There is feeling and trust, but no action, no form, 可傳而不可受 It can be handed down but not received, 可得而不可見 It can be gained but not seen; 自本自根未有天地 Before Heaven and Earth, it is its own source, 自古以固存 Existing firm from ancient times, 神鬼神帝生天生地 Giving power to ghosts and emperors, giving birth to Heaven and Earth; 在太極之先而不為高 Exceeding the greatest extreme, it can’t be seen as high, 在六極之下而不為深 Lower than all space, it can’t be seen as deep, 先天地生而不為久 Born before Heaven and Earth, it can’t be seen as longevous, 長於上古而不為老 From long before the oldest time, it can’t be seen as old Zhuangzi 應帝王 For Emperors & Kings (excerpt) 汝遊心於淡 Let your mind wander in simplicity, 合氣於漠 Blend your breath (/spirit) with the vastness, 順物自然 Follow along with things the way they are, 而無容私焉 And make no room for self; 而天下治矣 Then the world will be governed Well.. to start with, there are some exact linguistic similarities: 无为 wuwei / however you want to translate it 无形 wuxing / formless 先天地生 born before Heaven and Earth and some similar ideas: 道灋自然 The Way is of itself (LZ) 自本自根 it is its own source (ZZ) 可以為天下母 It is the mother of all things (LZ) 生天生地 giving birth to Heaven and Earth (ZZ) 侯王能支之而萬勿將自 A ruler can lean on it and life will take care of itself (LZ) 順物自然 (...) 而天下治矣 Follow along with things the way they are (...) then the world will be governed (ZZ) and a bunch of other things. As MH mentioned, in Laozi's descriptions of Dao he tends to mention that knowledge of Dao and wuwei and other attributes can be used to govern; Zhuangzi isn't so concerned with this, but obviously there is some talk of rule, some advice for kings. So far, their descriptions agree that the Way is and was the great mother, the originator of all we see and don't see, etc, and that following it can be pretty cool. They both talk of lessening the self/selfishness, following the nature of things, being wuwei (non-interfering, or whatever), etc. There is one oddity that I am unsure of.. ZZ says, 夫道有情有信 For in the Way there is (feeling) and (trust) Now, I'm not sure how best to translate these 2 terms, but... they do stick out, don't they? 情 qing can mean kindness, good will, feeling, emotion, mood, passion, and a bunch of other similar things... I don't think there's a discussion on this in the ZZ section yet. Perhaps it would be an interesting one.

A few people I know have died this year. My newest suit has been worn exclusively at funerals. We were asked if we wanted to see the body of one relative (my only truly close loss this year). I said no, and convinced a couple of other family members that it's better for one's last memory of a loved one to be the living, warm person they knew rather than a cold, lifeless one. I've been wondering, though... maybe it would be better for "closure" to see the reality of it. Proof that the person is never coming back... It's a choice I would imagine most of us are asked to make at some point, and I know it's going to happen a lot more in my future. Unless I die next, of course. Any advice based on experience? To see or not to see?

Are you in the USA? I ask because it seems that open casket funerals are fairly common there. Almost all funerals I've been to (all in the UK) have been cremations, where the body is not displayed. I've watched as a number of friends and relatives have withered away from various diseases; for some, I've sat by the bedside and held their hand, and have lasting memories of their pain, but also their strength. And I think that, for some, I could have seen their body later on without a hugely traumatic effect. But I haven't lost anyone so very close as a parent or child, and don't know if I'd be able to cope with that. I almost know what you mean by the 'message'. I've maybe learned something from each death so far -- either about the person, someone close to them, or myself. How important do you think it is? Are you saying that you definitely think we should all bear witness -- that it's more helpful to see than not to see? I suppose historically it has always been natural for humans to see their loved ones on the funeral pyre or what have you, and I'm sure it's considered as an important ritual in many cultures, but has it always been important to our well-being? I will probably continue to. I don't know if I'd be 'brave' enough to look if I didn't have to. Though I do endeavour to live as 'naturally' as possible, and, as mentioned above, humans have always naturally seen our dead.. just like any other animal..

Well in that case I think the only advice we can give him for learning Taoist calligraphy is: to learn how to write calligraphy, and make sure he's doing it Taoistly

Yeah.. I've been aware of this most of my life, though I didn't know what it was called till just now.. Democracy does seem to be the least of all the evils, though. At least people have some say in what happens.

No rules for me thanks edit: and I definitely do not take orders

But any calligrapher can write 道... not just a Taoist one...right? Confucius could write it... Could he be referring to 符箓法术? Or simply calligrapgers who write out TTC chapters, like this: http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/3odQ9YHxmGw ?

Yeah, maybe a li'l too much wine, but I agree with your basic point about revisionism. Not sure why you don't care about ZZ, though... he was a nice guy

In my opinion, there's no "maybe" about it

What do you mean by Taoist calligraphy?

Well, I understand the modern translation of 自然 ziran Tzujan is "nature" as we use the term (trees, cats, clouds), and I also believe I understand it as the philosophical concept that you guys are talking about. What I don't understand is how they're not the same thing.. Self-so is a nice literal translation, and we can understand the whole idea fairly easily by simply looking at nature; at evolution and geology and human society and everything else.. Different processes apply, or in other words different patterns develop and require different interactions. But all patterns have developed, originally, from the one original pattern.

This doesn't make sense, does it? it's not the nature of the physical world, but it's a process of self-development - with no apparent reason What's nature -- outdoor mother nature -- if not a process of self-development with no apparent reason?

I'm not sure about this translation either 吾聞庖丁之言，得養生焉 养 = feed, raise, cultivate, maintain...a whole bunch of things. Originally to raise/herd sheep. I'm not particularly good at anything, but I know people, or have read things from people, who are. I came across the works of a highly accomplished artist -- someone who produces stunning oil paintings with superb draughtsmanship and understanding of lighting, form, composition, etc -- who said that he spent years studying the old masters and practicing brushwork and everything else, but that when the time comes to actually paint, his challenge is to forget everything he's learned and paint from the heart. I think this often happens to people by accident, and we forget how to recreate it. Those moments when we stop thinking and just do something, and it turns out better than we thought it possibly could. Because our thinking mind is holding us back.

Interesting. I'm not sure but I might have translated slightly differently, this part: ... 故必將撞大鐘，擊鳴鼓，吹笙竽，彈琴瑟，以塞其耳 So in order to (以) block their ears, they must (必) hit clocks, beat drums, puffed flutes, played harps ...

re the DW/CH conversation: Of course, we have to use one of the later versions at certain points, because parts of the slips are missing. So either way we have to fill in with MWD or WB or other characters. But yes, my hope is that we try to use what we can of the GD before we run to the newer versions, to see if we can ascertain any info that might have been lost along the way. Still seems to me that it's possible that 辶兌 is a version of 锐 or 悦 or 说 or 兌 or even something else. But (as I'm aware) there are a couple of other chapters that talk of knowledge being potentially harmful: 19 絕智弃偏 Refute wisdom, abandon discussion, 民利百伓 And the people will profit a hundredfold; 絕巧弃利 Refute skill, abandon profit, 賊盜亡又 And there will be no more thievery 20 絕學亡憂 Stop learning and worry will die

Point taken! -- Doing just a quick scan, the only character I've noticed with a 言 radical on the slips is in ch.30, and it doesn't seem to be helpful. Even characters like 谓 don't contain the usual speech component (instead we have 胃). So it could well be that 言 wasn't commonly used in Chu (even though it was definitely in use elsewhere in 篆文 and 金文) -- As far as I've noticed, GD characters with 辶 or 彳 or 止 radicals are generally not related to speech - aside from 道 But the lack of 言-characters might indicate that others -- such as 辶 -- were used instead, I guess. -- There is another character with the 兌 radical: 敓 in ch.25. Not sure if that might tell us something. If we accept that 辶兌 is a form of 说, it could still be evidence of any number of things!

But 辶 辵 means walk ?!