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Firstly, I didn't say that all cultures are equal. That's a meaningless statement. It's like saying all potatoes are equal. Some are big, some are small, most are destined for the fryer. Culture and immigration policy aren't directly linked... I don't really know how this is relevant. It's not. I do wonder if you've ever been anywhere. Firstly, why 10 million? Where did this number come from? http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/latest-immigration-statistics There are half as many people leaving as there are coming. There are hundreds of thousands of British leaving the country every few years. And the immigration numbers to the UK only go into the tens of millions if we go back many years. There are loads of Africans in China. I visited churches in Beijing, Shanghai, and Harbin. British "culture" has been forced upon many nations throughout history. India, Southeast Asia, the Middle East, Africa...so many places were damaged and changed by actual forced immigration and policy change by the British, French, Portuguese.... and there are still loads of "white" people in high positions of power in these places. So many war-torn places in the world that people want to emigrate from are war-torn because of what the British did during the empire. If historical British culture belongs to modern British people, so does blame for immigration itself. I can see what you believe. To be blunt, it disgusts me. Either way, this country is (kind of) a democracy, and I have as much "right" to my say as the xenophobes. I welcome immigration. Bring it on.

Look at the GD slips -- not the transcription, but the original characters. In the first instance, they've transcribed 賽 as ‘obstruct', and in the second instance, as 'exceed' It's the very same character. They are basing each transcription, and the overall interpretation, on later versions of the text. What's the point in looking at the GD if we're just going to assume it means the same as the received? I agree that the meaning of 辶兌 is important. But we need to clear up some assumptions. 閟 shut 丌 門 door/gate 賽 ? could be one of 2 characters; sai with 贝 on the bottom originally referred to giving alms at temple 丌 兌 ? note the presence of 辶; and in ch.54, 兌 with no 辶. This means something different. 冬 end / final 身 body (终身 indeed meaning to the end of one's life) 不 not 嵍 I agree it means "toil", but it's not 勤. It looks like hands pulling a mountain 啟 open, begin, teach 丌 兌 ? 賽 ? 丌 事 event, work, affair 冬 身 不 逨 composed of 來 and 止: come, arrive, succeed 兌 is incredibly problematic, because it could have a number of pronunciations and variants, and could have been misinterpreted during verbal and written transmission any number of times over time. I've found no other record of it with the 辶 radicals, but in ch.54 the character 兌 appears without 辶 The original meaning of 兌: http://dict.shufaji.com/word-658.html 祝祷颂神，为祈求而许诺 Praying to/praising the gods/spirits, asking for help I've been looking at it on ctext, and I'm afraid that there are so many uses that it's going to be impossible to agree on one final meaning for it. The meaning you've given isn't entirely far off the one I'm thinking of, but the character is intextricably linked to the mouth; to speaking. The meaning of "sharp" that it has in some contexts is referring to a sharp tongue, as we do in English. ‘mental active concentration showing through in demeanor’ I don't quite know how you got here from the Guiguzi chapter. Sounds cool but the chapter doesn't actually say anything so specific.. http://www.gushiwen.org/GuShiWen_02be6c97b3.aspx 兑者，以心、眼察看外物 So, IMO we shouldn't choose a meaning for it based off one chapter in an obscure text, when it has many potential meanings. And either way, it's not the same character.... what does the 辶 signify?

"the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society" What some other people did centuries or millennia -- or even a few decades -- ago bears no direct relation to the people here now. I can choose to accept Stonehenge as British, or as part of world history. Your understanding of life is shallow. Why would it be sad? As in the UK, Japanese culture is very different to how it was at the turn of last century. Feudal samurai culture died out a long time ago. The medieval age was a horrible time for most people in the world, and yet many lament it, regarding samurai as some noble warrior class. They were a bunch of thugs. Is the fact that Japan has a new culture, based largely on foreign influence, a sad thing? Or a good thing? Or just a fact of life? Hah! No, I didn't say people create culture. They do, but what I said was people ARE culture. There is no such thing as "indigenous British", or indigenous anything for that matter. Long before modern immigration, we were an amalgamation of Brits, Attacotti, Scotti, Atrebates, Picts, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Normans, Romans.... I am almost equal parts Irish, Scottish, and English. Am I a purebred Brit? I have blonde hair... am I tainted with Norse blood? When does foreign invasion and rape and murder become acceptable and just a part of a culture? The history of the UK is a history of war and settlement. The UK wouldn't be here without mixed cultural influences. Your understanding of history is shallow. "British people"... Again: ha! Who's forcing? Are the Polish people next door breaking your door down and forcing you to eat cabbage? Do you not see the irony here? "Being destroyed" by the very nations you were just trying to defend the culture of... Erm.. yeah, I think some would find that disrespectful. In the first place, painting all "Arabic people" with the same brush, assuming that there's such a thing as a single "Arabic culture". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabs A multitude of nations, "ethnicities", languages, religions, and many other characteristics make up what we call the "Arabic people". Again, they are defined by an incredibly complex history and continually changing cultural and political landscape. Wow. I don't even know where to start. Propaganda, brainwashed, false war, suicide, subverted, anti-culture...

I honestly don't understand the problem people have with cultural shifts. It's not a "loss". One can't "kill" a culture, because a culture is nothing more than the people whose culture it is. Lots of people are complaining about UK immigration these days, talking of a loss of values and culture, yet nobody seems able to tell me what "UK culture" actually consists of, or what exactly is being lost. Beer and football? Still got 'em. Musical and technological innovation? Still got 'em. Xenophobia and national superiority complex? Still got 'em. Any major changes I see being made are by the government and the majority of the population -- including many of the complainants. The way of life in almost every country in the world is drastically different to how it was even 50 years ago, and that is mostly down to the huge shifts in technology and ideology we've seen -- there's very little to "blame" on immigration. And one day, people on this island won't be playing football or drinking beer anymore. One day it won't be the UK anymore. And so what? The people who are here will still be people. So when I hear anyone complaining of losing their "national identity" and "culture", I often feel like telling them to suck it the fuck up. Your culture is you. If you can only stomach being alive as long as your diet, environment, and daily routine never change... well.. it sucks to be you either way, doesn't it?

A paperback The Amber Spyglass by Philip Pullman And on the Kindle..Walden, A Tale of Two Cities, the Upanishads

Well.. you've convinced me. It's definitely about elephants.

No, I don't think there's any point in trying to find themes in each section unless they're obviously intended. Not a pure philosophy. Just philosophy, pure and simple, unadulterated with religious mumbo jumbo. Theories on how to understand life and live well, based on sound principles (in this case, the principles of Dao) Interesting. I see what you're getting at, in terms of "block the holes", but I don't think the GD characters are "block" or "hole", so....

I only listed the first few chapters from each! I didn't have the energy to list every single chapter! But as you mention it, the rest of the 甲 chapters are as follows: 32 is about the Way and ruling 25 is about the Way 5 is about the space between Heaven & Earth, so...not sure how to categorise 16 is about returning to the root (the way? not sure) 64 is about ruling / nature 56 is (I would say) about personal cultivation and ruling 57 is about ruling 55 is about the child..the weird one 44 is about personal cultivation / ruling 40 is about the Way 9 is about not forcing things (personal cultivation, ruling, the Way..) So altogether, 甲 contains perhaps 8 chapters that can be related directly to Dao. But most of them are not directly about it. I'd say 5 out of the 20 chapters.

I know this is what people say, but： if you actually look at the chapters in the order they appear in the GD, you won't find such a separation. I mean, look at it honestly, without some preconceived idea that it must be broken up in this way, and you won't find it to be. Because it's not. Any appearance of such is easily attributable to coincidence. example: the first few chapters of each section (numbered as they are in the received version) 甲 19, 66, 46, 30, 15, 64, 37, 63, 2 etc 19 is about ruling 66 is about ruling 46 is about personal cultivation or ruling 30 is about ruling 15 is about the ancients 64 is about personal cultivation or ruling 37 is about ruling and the Way 63 is about cultivation / being sagely / can be applied to ruling 2 is about duality / cultivation / can be applied to ruling etc 乙 59, 48, 20 etc 59 is about ruling 48 is about personal cultivation / the Way 20 can be applied to personal cultivation and ruling etc 丙 17, 18, 35 etc 17 is about ruling 18 is about ruling 35 is about ruling and personal cultivation etc

Helpful I mean why do you think those characters mean those things?? Aside from tying them to the first line. Are you interpreting 兑 as 悦 ?

Bam's a living legend. I mean, his influence on the beginning of hip-hop has helped shape modern Western culture. No lie. But he oversold that beat

In response to both of you: OK.. I get it. But I love my daily walk in the woods. The smells, the sounds, the sights... it feels like home. And so I kind of know what you mean about connectivity. But sometimes I like to just take off, run as fast as I can, climb a tree, etc... and I feel a great connection then, too.

To offer another perspective, When the Chinese took over Tibet (again) in 1950, they were under the leadership of one of the extreme power-hungry, murderous leaders in world history. Mao wasn't giving it up. Now, they're under the leadership of a bunch of power-mad bureaucrats who will still do anything to see China become the dominant world power, and will not back down from any fight they know they can win. They can win this one. Do we really think that complaining about "cultural genocide" is going to stop them? As much as I love China, I've no love for the CCP. And the Dalai Lama is a cool guy. But honestly.. his empire is lost.

Did people just pick chapters out that they liked and ignore the rest? And of those chapters, just pick out the lines they liked and ignore the rest? Well, I guess they did, sometimes.... It's the kind of thing I'd do, come to think of it... People continue to claim that there is religious, mystical, and neigong -related stuff in the GD, but I have yet to see any real evidence of such. My GD translations started based on discussions in this very forum, guided by you guys. If I had any preconceived ideas about its content, they were certainly not that it was a manual of leadership/politics/philosophy. I assumed that there would be at least some religious stuff, to be honest -- possibly some mention of spirits and gods and meditation and ritual. What I've found is almost entirely pure philosophy. I didn't try to interpret it like that; that's just how I've found it. I'm trying to 'see' the other stuff that's apparently there, but... Just.... gates. Literally all the gates. Close off the towns, close off the nation. Don't let any dangerous ideas in. Keep the people worshiping their gods and farming their land. Something China is fairly well-known for, no? Great walls built along thousands of miles to keep out intruders... burning books and building temples... a great nation of peasants unified under great emperors, closed off to the outside world for centuries...? Can you explain how you got the meanings for these?

Another thing: Obviously it was organized differently. What does saying that actually explain? Every chapter in the TTC can be seen to be 'synthetic', to have different threads running through -- political/metaphysical/philosophical/whatever. The question is why the GD was organized differently. And why, in the case of this particular chapter, so much was left out -- or added later. As far as I'm aware so far, there's no neigong instruction in any other GD chapter. The only connectable passage is 55, which talks of 心史气 controlling the breath/qi with the mind. That chapter is troublesome.. all the rest are split between politics/guidance on ruling, and metaphysics/descriptions of Dao. I'd suggest that the later versions of the TTC have been watered down by religious Taoists in order to explain away the overtly authoritarian messages in so many chapters. As they couldn't completely change traditionally accepted lines, they added lines here and there, and characters evolved slightly away from the original ones.

Neigong eh? I'd be curious to know your reasoning.

Hmm... I thought it would be met with more scepticism... Admittedly, the 兌 辶 = religion is guesswork, based on the fact that it makes sense. There needs to be a way of translating these constructions other than with obscure, nonsensical phrases like Keep your mouth shut, Guard the senses, And life is ever full (Feng) and Open the holes, Excel in affairs, And you will never reach the end of your days (Henricks) ... I mean...come on.. what do these things mean?? I'd be curious to know how/why the GD version is so different to the received. When was the extra stuff added? Or if the GD version is incomplete, why is it?

Well... the original was something very different. The GD is short and to the point: 閟丌門 Shut their gates, 賽丌兌 Encourage their religion, 冬身不嵍 And you shall live easily; 啟丌兌 Awaken them from religion, 賽丌事 Encourage them to action, 冬身不逨 And you will never rest 兌 here is 辶 + 兌 嵍 here is 矛 + 山 兌 originally meaning prayer,worship, and 辶 (walking/doing) signifying active prayer: religion The rest of the meaning follows on once that's figured out. Encouraging religion kind of means blunting edges/blocking holes, I suppose, but in a way that actually makes sense. Yet another encouragement for keeping the people stupid/ignorant in order to keep a state harmonious.

I wonder why you believe that nature is particularly slow..? In my experience, it moves at all speeds.

OK. Cool. Well whoever 中黄子 is, I don't suppose it really matters; we can see that 老子 is not supporting this speech about the 25, but saying that it goes against Dao. 所謂道者，無前無後，無左無右，萬物玄同，無是無非

I'm not sure that "leave it to the Tao" means anything. In my view, Tao isn't some kind of karmic reinforcer, making sure everything balances out for each person. There is a general balance of forces/energy in the universe, but does that necessarily mean that each person will share equal amounts of good times and bad times from life's beginning to end, just because? We have to push a little bit. In order to find balance, to be contented, we've got to unlearn a lot of bullshit, and often get away from certain places, people, and situations. Some might say "You can find happiness anywhere, just readjust your thinking" or "Running away from life won't help", but -- to get extreme for a moment -- I guarantee that there was no contented, well-adjusted person in a Nazi concentration camp, and there are no contented, well-adjusted Syrian refugees in places like Za'atari. You're not in such an extreme situation (I hope!) but that doesn't necessarily mean that just leaving life to fate will improve things. Sometimes a change is necessary. 湍而群之不可長保也 Working against the tide cannot last long [...] 功述身退天之道也 When the work is done, withdraw; the Way of Heaven Sometimes going with the flow / being like water means doing what you feel, making a change, not fighting an uphill battle against your emotions.

Looking at the chapter as a whole, which I should have done in the first place, I've satisfied myself ( not like that). The whole chapter is comprised of: 老子曰: [...blah blah...] Laozi says... [...blah blah...] 老子曰: [...blah blah...] Laozi says... [...blah blah...] 老子曰: [...blah blah...] Laozi says... [...blah blah...] until, near the very end of the chapter, we have: 昔者中黃子曰... Once, Zhonghuangzi said... So it would seem that Laozi is quoting Zhonghuangzi. And on sites other than ctext, it's suggested that the quote finishes before the end, and Laozi continues, saying: 上五之與下五，猶人之與牛馬也 The top 5 to the bottom 5 seem like people to cattle [...] 故聖人所以動天下者，真人未嘗過焉 So the 'true' men have tried nothing that the sages have 賢人所以矯世俗者，聖人未嘗觀焉 Sages have seen nothing of the 'worthy' men improving the world 所謂道者，無前無後，無左無右，萬物玄同，無是無非 Anything that is Dao is neither in front nor behind, neither left nor right; all things come together, neither right nor wrong

Yes...I'm not sure that anyone is particularly 'significant' in the first place. But I know what you mean. Right, but then why mention these 25 at all? Clearly someone thought the ranking was worth mentioning..?

我说错了吧！ 我的意思是只要在 TTS 和你们几个谈谈有关老子、庄子的事，不再参与别的讨论。不要浪费时间啦 我得多练习点儿，中文水平下降了