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I don't really understand why it would've been specifically for you..? When I paint, I paint only what's in my head. For me. And it's nice when others like it. When doing this translation stuff, same idea. It's not for other people -- though I'm glad when it's useful to others.

No disagreement from me on that.. (as much as I love it) Why instructive? What instruction? Or fairly decent evidence that more than one author is responsible for the modern TTC. or to me at least, 谷神 is very easily understandable as Dao. To personify Dao as a 'spirit' of sorts would enable one to talk of it 'not dying' or [see below] Not convinced...! Assuming they are instructions. I'll offer another interpretation, which is discernible from the permutations available: 浴神不死 The desire to be immortal [a god that does not die] 是胃玄牝 Is called the mysterious gorge 玄牝之門 The door to the mysterious gorge 是胃天地之根 Is called the root of Heaven and Earth 綿綿呵其若存 Continuous! for generations 用之不勤 Used but useless

I think that way of presenting it is more faithful to the original Chinese than most translations The problem is, people say "Well, that's not a translation! It's just a bunch of words!" and run off to find someone else to tell them how to interpret it..

Yes it is at least partly about death.. though not exclusively, I feel (death isn't the only type of returning to roots..just the most powerful) With regard to this chapter (6), I have now a number of possible permutations: 浴[/谷]神不死 valley/desire/grain spirit/god not die 是胃玄牝 is called mysterious gorge/female 玄牝之門 mysterious gorge/female door 是胃天地之根 is called heaven earth root 縣縣 / 綿綿呵其若存 stupid/worry/continuous ha! it’s like generations/life/surviving 用之不堇[/勤] its use not clay / not merely / not root [/ not regular]

Just to be predictably argumentative... does an 'enlightened' person necessarily care about the environment? Part of me thinks that Laozi, for example, would say that the utter destruction of life on Earth, and a subsequent return to the root, is just that: a return to the root. Nothing to worry about.

至虛恒也 Reaching eternal emptiness, 獸中孰也 Who can maintain it? 萬物方乍居以頒復也 Life flourishes all around, living in coming and going; 天道熉熉 The Way of Heaven is balance, 各復丌堇 Everything returns to its root I wonder if this (ch.16 GD version) is relevant? The last character, 堇 jin, is also the last character in the MWD ch.6, which I translated as "root" in 16... though right now I can't remember why (I think just because it made more sense than any other translation) I'm wondering now if one or the other is wrong..

No need to thank..I'm just selfishly defending the teachings of Laozi It seems that you've come upon something good and satisfying, and if that's the case, perhaps you need no books at all (other than ones you read purely for enjoyment).

Good stuff. I agree, I think. The thing is, what you describe here is secondary teaching. Not things that were taught in the Laozi or Zhuangzi. All this cultivation stuff... well, it has its benefits, I think, at least physically. But it is something created by later generations of 'Taoists' who completely -- either willfully or by accident -- misunderstood, and misrepresented, what these 2 books were saying. It's actually right there, if one cares to look at it honestly: TTC 20: "Have done with learning, and you will have no more vexation." TTC 47: "Learning consists in daily accumulating; the practice of Tao consists in daily diminishing." TTC 64: "He who fusses over anything spoils it. He who grasps anything loses it. The Sage fusses over nothing and therefore spoils nothing. He grips at nothing and therefore loses nothing." TTC 71: "Only when we are sick of our sickness shall we cease to be sick. The Sage is not sick, being sick of sickness; this is the secret of health." ZZ 刻意: "Ingrained ideas and a high estimate of their own conduct; leaving the world, and pursuing uncommon ways; talking loftily and in resentful disparagement of others - all this is simply symptomatic of arrogance [...] The sage is entirely restful, and so (his mind) is evenly balanced and at ease. This even balance and ease appears in his placidity and indifference." It's because people feel the need for grasping at more knowledge, for self-criticism and even self-abuse, for believing that they must be sick, that they follow certain teachings. The old ones knew that this is nonsense. As with Daoist philosophy: the longer Buddhism has had to develop, the more teachings one has to learn. Go to the simplest few teachings, and I think they can be beneficial. Or, perhaps, these abusive teachings have guided you to learn all this. Perhaps they've taught you that there is nothing to learn.

My initial reaction is to agree with your points but disagree with the conclusion, I think. Many people never feel that they need enlightening. They just "do", and that's life. They don't see past the conditioning and false teaching even when it's pointed out to them. There are only the few who, like most on here, have that feeling, or find it at some point along the way, that there's something to discover about oneself and about existence generally. Someone who doesn't have this feeling is never going to put in the work to discover what the feeling is about. Someone who has the feeling, and really starts unmasking is, in the first instance, probably more honest about and aware of the problems they face. And I think that on this 'journey' or path it depends on the individual as to how much effort needs to be put in. I think that probably some people can have an 'ooh!' moment where everything falls into place. edit: In fact, I think the only true 'enlightenment', if there is such a thing, comes from, as Laozi said, unlearning. Being sick of one's sickness. Being placid. Getting to the point where one no longer worries about it all. That's probably an 'ooh!' moment. He's an interesting case. I'm certain he's always devoted much time and energy to being the wonderful specimen that he is. But also, guys like him and Jesus, and even the Queen of England to some extent, who have been taught from a young age that they're special, and brought up to believe that they will lead by example... well, I think that must have an effect on how one sees the world and interacts with people.

Lots of things would still have happened...

Not equal. If we could get to the smallest parts -- the quanta -- of existence, 1 of those would equal 1 other, I suppose. But everything beyond that is beyond calculation. "Equalness" (as opposed to equality) doesn't really factor in. I could have made the choice to stay in bed, but that choice would have been influenced by a billion other things. I'm not arguing that we as sentient beings don't have choices, but that the Dao makes no choices. It just happens. Self-so. I think the chapter is saying that the closer we get to the Way, and the Way of Heaven ("When the work is done, withdraw"), it's not that we stop doing anything or making choices, but that we see our actions and choices as a part of the grand scheme.

Yes ...but that actually means something. I don't think Henricks's phrasing does. I don't think he's considered the deeper meaning.

Sorry. Everything after the first line was intended as a response to the OP, not to you (one of those things that seemed obvious in my head but in hindsight was clearly not obvious at all!)

Sure. We're probably mostly agreed, and just playing with definitions here... but true creativeness, I think, comes from not being a calculating, thinking person. I've mentioned it before: when I "do" art - stuff that I'm proud of - it's a result of being in the void. Not thinking, just letting it flow. And I just personally tend not to separate that creative state from nature. It's somewhere between being robotic human and being a primitive animal..maybe

Simple cause and effect suggests that if I kick the ball > the ball moves away And that's OK if we're playing football or doing an experiment to test ball bounciness But in the greater scheme of things -- which is what we're concerned with, isn't it? -- there were things that caused me to be there kicking, and that caused the ball to be there, and that caused the ground that we stood on to be there in whatever condition, and the wind and the shoes I'm wearing and the energy I have etc etc all contribute to that situation, and that situation affects a billion other situations in so many obvious and imperceptible ways. There is cause and effect, but it's not as simple as { 1 cause = 1 effect = stop} it's more like { everything = everything = everything ... }

No, no! Rather, Don't push and prod things in order to try and make them grow Henricks says, To accumulate until you have filled it Is not so good as stopping in time it is that meaning, but his words lack any kind of life or feeling Filled it? What's it? Stopping in time for what? There's no practical advice, just "don't overfill something cos then it might be too full"....

For me, it says that she who stops trying to learn starts getting back to that root, closer to the Tao, the things one 'knew' fall apart, the person one was breaks away, and what's left is harmony... One sees that doing isn't really doing -- there's no finite agent of doing -- and that still things are done It is quite Buddhist, I think. They're very similar in so many ways. This reminds me slightly of pratityasamutpada -- dependent/interdependent origination Everything happens, but there are no individual, separate things making other things happen without any outside influence When one gets closer to the Way, one learns to appreciate that the Way is doing it all, and we're part of it

hehe...oh the irony 困而浧之 Compelling fullness 不不若已 Does not yield life here, you see (and this is probably just more of my linguistic self-indulgence but bear with me), we have: 困 is actually a character with foot 之 on top of tree/plant 木, meaning control/force, but which suggests perhaps an the idea of forcing something to grow by stamping on it (not an act that results in growth, generally) 浧 means full (up), and seems like it could be seen as a pictogram of a person having water poured into their mouth till overflowing (or simply someone full of water) then 已 is a pictograph of a newborn -- symbolizing the end of pregnancy, and meaning finish or stop or fulfillment The connections to living things -- trees, people, babies -- made me wonder if a more visceral translation wouldn't be appropriate

Yeah. I don't like the line much (the way I've translated it). A thinker.

Well, we are and we aren't. Another good point, and I'll change accordingly: 學者日益 Those who learn collect day by day, 爲道者日損 Those who do the Way break apart day by day; 損之或損 Break apart and break apart, 以至亡爲也 Until there’s nothing doing; 亡爲而亡不爲 Nothing doing, and nothing not doing To me the chapter is a fairly graphic representation of what happens when one starts to lose oneself to the Way It says, almost word for word, "Those who do the Way break daily, break and break, until there's nothing (nobody) there to do, nothing doing and nothing not doing" It's wu wei, but a more extreme version than we usually talk about, I feel.

Yes well that is what's meant isn't it.. I'm wondering about another way of saying it though: 困而浧之 Compelling fullness 不不若已 Does not yield life; 湍而群之 Working against the tide 不可長保也 Cannot last long; 金玉浧室 When gold and jade fill one’s halls, 莫能獸也 There is no protection; 貴福喬 The arrogance of wealth 自遺咎也 Creates its own problems; 功述身退 When the work is done, withdraw; 天之道也 The Way of Heaven

Ah Turner! Yes.. his landscapes are ethereal..beautiful.. Thanks for participating! Now I've discovered Redon thanks to you I only yesterday really discovered the work of Jean-Léon Gérôme... looking at these paintings I feel almost transported back to the times and places they depict

學者日益 Those who learn collect day by day, 爲道者日損 Those who follow the Way break apart day by day; 損之或損 Break apart and break apart, 以至亡爲也 Until there’s nothing doing; 亡爲而亡不爲 Nothing doing, and nothing not doing

返也者 Returning 道動也 Is caused by the Way; 溺也者 Weakness 道之用也 Is used by the Way; 天下之勿 All things under Heaven 生於又 Are born of being, 生於亡 Are born of not being hmm..very similar to Henricks this time

Does lienshan not post here any longer? We would've gotten into some battles... 困而浧之 To go too far, 不不若已 Is not as good as stopping; 湍而群之 To do more than one can manage 不可長保也 Is not sustainable; 金玉浧室 When gold and jade fill one’s halls, 莫能獸也 There is no protection; 貴福喬 The arrogance of wealth 自遺咎也 Creates its own problems; 功述身退 When the work is done, withdraw; 天之道也 The Way of Heaven 不 this second 不 possibly meant as 而