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So, the "more Taoist" way is perhaps less realistic? Makes sense. Suddenly reads a lot more like the Art of War. Not dark, really -- or at least, no darker than chapters 19, 30, 46, all of which are in the Guodian. Rule with a cotton fist; keep the masses fed and stupid. Can this part in the GD be interpreted in such a manner, though? 聖人谷不谷 -- referring to the sage himself, and not the people, not wanting to desire

Ah..well.. 聖人谷不谷 The wise man desires not to desire, 不貴難㝵之貨 And does not covet rare things; 學不學 Learns not to learn, 復眾之所過 And returns to the beginning; Practically (and linguistically), does this make sense? Learn not to learn / undo one's learning / not hold onto ideas, and one goes back (mentally) to the beginning, whence everyone else has come (but no longer resides) -- i.e. like a newborn, no preconceptions

From the Guodian A7 (slips 10-13) I don't think there's anything particularly contentious here. Cool chapter. 爲之者敗之執之者遠之 Those who act, err; those who grasp, lose; 是以聖人 As the wise man 亡爲古亡敗亡執古亡遠 Acts not, he errs not; grasps not, he loses not; 臨事之紀訢冬奴怡 When anticipating affairs, be as cautious at the end as at the beginning, 此亡敗事矣 And you will not err; 聖人谷不谷 The wise man desires not to desire, 不貴難㝵之貨 And does not covet rare things; 學不學 Learns not to learn, 復眾之所過 And returns to the beginning; 是古聖人能甫萬勿之自然 The wise man is good at tending to life, 而弗能爲 But not at forcing it

Based on the article by 張駿龍 Zhang Junlong I'm actually going to suggest that we were both wrong. And I happily bow the the greater erudition of a young Chinese man studying these texts! 張駿龍 Zhang Junlong has used a character that makes even more sense. "[unpastable]，或通“遠”，意注目遠望" (edit: [unpastable], also "yuan (far)", as in "yuanwang (looking into the distance)" I'm not sure where anyone first saw "water" or "hands" in this character in the GD. I think that some scholars simply didn't know what to make of it and so just used the MWD version. Though the upper-right portion isn't as clear, there is very clearly a variant of 見 on the left (same as can be seen in the last line of ch.19, strip A2), and at the bottom (right) we can recognize a 止 foot radical. Again, Zhang Junlong has found an excellent modern variant of the actual character, which can be seen in the article. "釋爲此，音“譯”，喜悅，心胸開闊、心曠神怡" (edit: interpreted as: sounds like "yi”, meaning happy, relaxed") So 懌 would fit quite well, it seems.

Interesting.. Interesting....! Perhaps my wording sounded more harsh than I intended. I'm not complaining, by any means. It's absolutely your "right" (whatever that means) do do with your body as you wish. I am probably judging, but I am a human person, so that's inevitable. Without judgement we'd be robots already.

Me neither. I think the standard transcription is wrong. I just found an excellent transcription source for the GD which is far closer to the original than anything else I've seen. (what makes me very happy is that it agrees almost entirely with my own transcription thus far; what makes me sad is that I didn't find it weeks ago!) Most of the characters are not recognized outside of the pdf so aren't copyable, but http://www.docin.com/p-6986227.html Based on that, my own work, and some insights from you (edit: all of you!)..here's mine so far (I've left the contentious parts as open to interpretation as I can): 長古之善為士者 The noble ones of old 必非溺玄達深不可志 Surely did not drown in mystery, deep beyond ambition; 是以爲之頌 They can be described as 夜唬奴冬涉川 Cautious, like one crossing a winter stream, 猷唬亓奴畏四粦 Lost, like one scared from all sides, 敢唬亓奴客 Solemn, like a guest, 觀唬亓奴懌 Hopeful, like joy, 屯唬亓奴樸 Simple, like uncarved wood, 坉唬亓奴浊 Muddled, like mud; 竺能浊以束者將余清 Of the muddy, that which can be still will become clear; 竺能仄以迬者將余生 Of the imperiled, that which can move forward will live; 保此衜者不谷尚呈 One who maintains this Way desires not to stand tall

No problem with people wanting to be robots, I just don't see it as much more than a technically advanced juvenile fantasy. I prefer to live with the mind that at any point I might be dead; and realize that if I cannot appreciate things and find joy in this form, with the time I have, there's no point changing form or extending my time.

Experimentation I fully understand. My life is one big experiment. But I don't really understand why being robot would be preferable to being human. True enough. Dogma is the real enemy. Who does?

Ah, but of course. Same for me, except the ones that stick in my mind are Jackie's. Drunken Master, Legend of Drunken Master, Snake in Eagle's Shadow, and probably 2 dozen more.. I will be checking out whichever I haven't seen from that list. Sounds like I need to catch up on Wu Jing. Not a huge Tarantino fan, but he swayed me slightly with Pai Mei! Yes Gordon was another I almost mentioned. Jaa is incredible, most certainly my favourite right now. I clearly remember the first time I watched Ong Bak -- picked it up randomly at a pirate dvd shop in Beijing, no subtitles so I couldn't understand a word, but I was rapt from the first 5 seconds. Have you seen the The Raid movies with Iko Uwais? (minor location spoiler for The Raid 2)

I'm not really sure how to respond to this. I suppose his desire to be a robot and eliminate humanity from humankind could be said to be "pure and true", but that doesn't make it "good". Sometimes, the truth is a pile of fecal matter. Besides, any of us "trying to shut down" this search are only doing that out of our own instinctive, pure, and true instinct to search for the truth ourselves. And if he didn't want anyone to argue with him, he shouldn't have posted such a controversial topic (or at all). I'm not sure how to respond to this either, other than to suggest that our understandings of Taoism are fundamentally different. Taoism never encouraged me to "search for completion" -- I found it through my innate desire or need to understand things.

Madlib invades Blue Note (Shades of Blue)

This has been another major bother for me. The first character looks to me to be 觀 观 and 懌 is the closest I can find to the last one, but in terms of actual structure, it looks a lot more like 白 夫 心 ...or, something similar that's actually a character... Not sure if you might have thoughts on either of these?

Are we deciding for humanity?

http://thetaobums.com/topic/36645-kung-fu-movie-stars/

Yeah, I've tried explaining that away, as some others have done... ...but it does seem that these are just attempts not to bring "god" into the book. The author of this chapter does seem to have been talking about a god. However, in thinking about the GD by itself, I / we don't have to worry, as chapter 4 isn't part of it it

Haha, I wasn't sure if you'd bite. Actually, I was forgetting one or two perhaps, but (and I will probably catch shit for this) Jackie Chan, Jet Li, Carter Wong, Bruce Lee were the ones I was thinking of. In that order! What about you?

You're doing much better than me. I haven't dared post my translation yet... My "deep" was actually the deep of the next line, 深. I was playing with those lines being connected 必非溺玄達深不可志 Surely were not drowned in mystery or deep beyond ambition I realize how clunky it is.. Ahh. OK. I'm gonna think on that.

Well..I think that we have to assume certain things to be factual in order to function. If we question whether or not we're really thinking/existing/breathing etc, we question ourselves to the point that our own actions become meaningless. That said, I'm sure someone cleverer than me could make a convincing argument for why we're not actually breathing.. a Solipsist might say that he's the only one breathing; an Idealist might say that we can't be sure that anything outside of thought (including our own physical presence?) isn't pure imagination. But like I said, I think this way of thinking is fairly useless... whether it's true or not, I'm experiencing breathing, so I might as well accept it as fact. There are things that have been believed to be factual and have been found false, such as that the Sun orbits the Earth, or that chemical elements' atomic weights are always the same. And there are things which are held only as beliefs but might well be factual...but I couldn't give examples...could be anything...

Donnie's my 5th favourite Chinese action guy...will check this out

I'm really happy that you've used the GD text and left many character meanings intact As is my wont I have a few areas I disagree with, but it's nice to see someone else toying with different ideas! It's getting late, but would like to comment on the first few lines (for now!)... Why mountains? Why intelligence? Yes, 溺 has had me slightly confused. My own take is: 必非溺玄達深不可志 Surely were not drowned in mystery or deep beyond ambition 达 is used in the Book of Rites as "unimpeded"..not sure what to make of that On the slip is written 志 , without 言. Both Confucius and Mencius used 志 as "(one's) will" or perhaps "ambition" Yes I like

Yes, I think that's what we decided to call it. Who told you? What? noooooooooooooooooooooo Yes. It's not always easy for me, but I would like to think that I can change my mind as easily as I can sniff if something I believe is shown to be wrong (based on evidence/logic/fact/whatever)

I liked it with a very much.

Imaginary places can be great fun. Must balance with reality though... Excuse the tired example, but it was once a given that the earth was flat. Mankind will have to change our minds, about many things, in the future. I don't see why anyone would say it's "impossible" for the law of the conservation of energy to be found to be flawed in the future, especially considering we don't seem to know what energy actually is.

Well, I'm glad you brought this up! I've skimmed it, but no patience to thoroughly read a rhyming translation of a poem (imo, a very silly idea) I did look at the Chinese a little.. So... OK, Nvwa was known in Chu! But Qu's questioning her existence -- who made her? -- in the same way he's questioning things in the rest of the poem. What, then, makes us think this questioning wasn't common in Chu, and that the Taoists responsible for the GD weren't of the same questioning mindset? I'd like to think that they were.. I wasn't saying she's supposed to have existed after the GD, but that she didn't appear in literature till 350BC, and thus wasn't necessarily known to all people in China before then. Every myth has a beginning. I now see that she most certainly was known in Chu by then Leading on from above (Qu Yuan questioning everything), if the Chu were decadent and Taoist and Shamanistic, and not very Confucian, and there were people questioning things... I still want to suggest that they might have been less inclined to believe ideas about a big woman creating nobles and commoners separately out of clay...

I know it seems small, "crying" over a few extra words, but to me it suggests that a translator hasn't grasped a central idea in the chapters: fewest words, biggest emphasis; choose few words carefully and imply many different meanings. The Chinese does this, whereas I'm afraid many English translations don't. And I would agree that WW's is more literal than H's, in that it uses these fewer words, though I wouldn't necessarily agree that the choice of words used is better.