dust

Yeah, I've never really been able to get my head around this Buddhist idea of completely getting rid of desire. I think it's probably possible, but that, as you say, desires are natural -- without them we would cease to be "human" (whatever the definition of “human” is, desire is surely a part). I think that these chapters realize that too, and that, as you say, it's about controlling desire and realising when enough is enough (chapter 46). Actually, I think that (in the Guodian at least) need and desire seem almost interchangeable -- the character 欲 could be translated as either. The right-hand radical is 欠 (originally a pictograph of a mouth sucking in air -- lack of and need for something). It's all suggesting that we must be aware of needs and recognize that everyone must eat, and enjoy it, but going much beyond the basics of food and health etc can lead to major problems..

Yeah.This seems to be the consensus, and I see the reasoning. I just trying to leave it as open/ambiguous as possible though -- at least, as far as it's been left ambiguous in the Chinese.. edit: I just trying? I'm just trying...trying...

I'm not sure that it would translate well into a usable Chinese name, but we might translate as 溪旁 -- stream/creekside 河旁 -- riverside Another Chinese speaker might have better luck though...my brain is used up today

I see.. one thing that is unclear is whether the GD was an early version of the MWD and the TTC in general, or just a different "edition" -- if the former, I don't think it unlikely that the original meaning was "真" or "贞" and that they changed it later on. If the latter, I don't think it unlikely that the GD writer simply "spelled" it wrong (there do seem to be many odd spellings, not least the 2 versions of 道) The GD writer did use 静 in place of 争, so I guess 朿 in place of 静 might make sense, in an odd way..?

I'm hoping that within the next few months, based off much nightly research and translation and with feedback from these discussions, I'll be able to put forward "my own" translation (though I wouldn't want to call it "my own"). Whether or not anyone else cares is another matter! But I hope that we might be shedding some kind of new light on the GD. Yes, I like this word in the context of the chapter. "Change" is more than relevant, but the idea that "Life will take care of itself" or "Life will harmonize and do as it needs" seems quite fitting.

Incidentally, I'm looking for a new qigong, would you recommend 鹤翔庄? I'm not exactly new to qigong, but am also not experienced. Having looked it up just now it's apparently very popular in China...

Most phonetic translations translate back to nonsense-English 啊 ah is a particle used at the end of sentences to express excitement or affirmation 里 has/had 2 meanings: inside (originally the inner lining of clothing); and village/hometown/measure of distance (as in "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step" 千里之行始于足下) I would have translated it to 阿里, but still no less nonsense in English. Soaring Crane... I'm not familiar with the naming of such systems.. so I'm not sure if I'm missing something. I suddenly feel ill-equipped to help, and maybe someone else will step in.. but as far as I can tell, 鹤翔 He Xiang meaning Crane Soaring/Ascending, and 庄 Zhuang meaning village/farm, a literal translation would be 鹤翔庄(气)功 -- Crane Ascending Village (Qi)Gong It's possibly translated simply to "Soaring Crane" because "Crane Ascending Farm" doesn't sound as good? Whereas in Chinese, Hexiangzhuang rolls off the tongue nicely, and the zhuang adds an earthy element to the name. So if I'm not wrong, Soaring Crane would be 翔鹤 Xiang He

Feeling a need to practice my Chinese, aside from all the translation of ancient texts.. this seemed like a useful way to do so

hehe, OK.. my Chinese isn't that deep but if we turn to Mr internet, 畚 ben, pronounced "bern", is a straw basket, hamper, or hod. It would certainly be a simple representation...

Regarding Henricks's translation (taken from terebess) [彳人亍]恒亡为也。 The Way constantly takes no action. 侯王能守之， Marquises and kings can maintain it, 而万勿（物）将自为， And the ten thousand things transform on their own. 为而欲作， Once they have transformed, should desires arise, 将贞（真）之以亡名之朴。 You must quell them using the nameless natural state [pu]. 夫亦将智（知）足， You must also know when you have enough. 智（知）〈足〉以朿， Knowing [when you have enough], you will be tranquil, 万勿（物）将自定。 And the ten thousand things will be stable all on their own. 守 maintain -- in the script I don't see this character, but 支, rely on/lean on, which I think makes more sense, as how does one man think he could or should try to "maintain" the Dao? It maintains itself, all he need do is use it. 为 act/change -- this character is clearly written with a 心 heart particle, which according to my favourite source means "harmony" 贞 真 -- to me, it looks closer to 贞 (pure) in the script, but it could as easily be 真. Either way, I don't know why it's been translated as "quell" when 真 means "true" or "genuine" 朿 -- looks right to me, or close as anything else. It means "prick" or "thorn" so I don't know why it's been translated as "tranquil" Though I must continue to admit my lack of expertise and training in this whole area compared to real university scholars, I'm finding more and more choices from Henricks & the Dartmouth conference which utterly confuse me...

I hadn't noticed the contradiction, but you're right. Though I have no idea how much the author would have been thinking about the original pictoral meanings of the characters he was writing, I have been basing many choices on the assumption that there was at least a partial awareness of these meanings. But regarding taking care of a sick or elderly person: if all we are doing is giving them just enough (food, drink, comfort) that they can feel slightly better, or perhaps even get better, is this not the kind of guiding non-interference that we're talking about in the chapter? Leave the body to heal itself, but give it just enough encouragement/assistance to be able to? Well..yes and no. Being that I was trying to ignore other translations and find my own meanings, this was tricky. And there seems to be disagreement over the original meaning of 勿, but one source says that it was originally a "pictograph of banners on a pole used to direct troops". So I've made the assumption (considering the alternative translation, "10,000 do not", wouldn't make much sense) that 勿 in this script meant 物. Thought about in terms of banners directing troops, and these being the "10,000 things", this would fit with the theory that the GD was a collection of TTC chapters focusing on governance/the art of ruling more than the Dao itself.

I certainly don't believe that all translators have misunderstood the text! No, it was mostly a joke. The Chinese I wrote would translate something like "Ha, it's possible!" But I leave room for doubt with anything. It is possible, even likely, that there are gaps or misunderstandings that have never been rectified, and I don't believe that any single translator has understood 100% of every layer of meaning in the text... So, no, it was a joke, but at the same time I probably wouldn't be attempting my own translations if I didn't think there might be something else to find out, right?

Might you translate it as 厚德 (Hou de)? Deep/Profound Virtue Alternatively, 侯德 (also Hou de) -- this Hou being a Chinese surname

dawei, marblehead... anyone else still paying attention.. it's not a traditional interpretation, and you're probably getting tired of these! but I hope you'll let me know what your thoughts are..

Agreed. In the UK, at least (I know a few Americans who are more devout), this is the way of things. Being a fiction fan, I'm usually not aware of an author's convictions as they're largely irrelevant, but certainly in terms of music and art, I'm aware that many of my favourites are/were believers of some sort (Christian, Jewish, Islamic), and throughout history most of Europe and the Middle East's greatest literature, painting, sculpture, calligraphy, music, architecture, and other beautiful stuff has been created by believers. No arguments from me there! I am not convinced, though, that any of those great artists were more "spiritually mature" than anyone else -- just more talented and nourished in their particular field. Yes to the bold, but I'm still not sure that, apart from a propensity for producing pretty things, Catholicism contains any real spiritual jewels.

衜恆亡爲也 The Way is effortless; 侯王能支之 A ruler can lean on it, 而萬勿將自爲爲而欲作 And life will take care of itself; 將貞之以亡名之樸 Preserve purity with an unnamed piece of wood; 夫亦將智 If a man knows this, 智足以朿萬勿將自定 He knows enough to make life steady itself 爲 -- not this, but this: http://dict.variants.moe.edu.tw/yitic/frc/frc03775.htm -- meaning "harmony" 將 -- appearing 4 times, this originally meant "to serve wine and meat at the bedside of the sick or elderly", then "assist", then "command", and so on. Considering in the GD the character is written with the original wine jar radical 酉, does it mean "take care of", "assist", or "preserve" ? edit: note this is GD, considered separately from the other versions

Yes..though I think most just think of it as the shiny thing that will fly to heaven when they die! This may well be true...I haven't met every Christian on the planet. But those I have met, and heard about, and read about, are generally lacking in this regard. I may have a somewhat jaded view, but can you blame me? The priest at my Catholic school, a man who most thought was wonderful and spiritual and wise, was sent to prison on child porn charges...

This is what Christianity is, and what the Abrahamic religions have always been -- people vs people in a world created by a supreme being; individuals in a world of time and space. In Matthew 6, we're given the Lord's Prayer. Jesus told us to ask for things. http://neno.co.ke/bible/book/Matthew/6/11 I have never come across the idea, among any Christian I've ever met -- anyone who truly believes in the Old and/or New Testaments -- of being more "spiritually mature" than people like Moses, Job, or Jesus. They all talked to God, telling him things and asking him questions, and received miracles.

I'm not an expert on either prayer or meditation. As I understand, though, Having been educated at a Protestant and a Catholic shool, as I've participated in and understood Christian prayer in the past, it is nothing more than putting one's hands together and talking to God. If we assume, as believers do, that God is omnipresent, there is no need to affect any kind of deep concentration in order for God to hear this. One might imagine, actually, that such a religious man would be talking to God and asking for advice for much of the day, and that during a jog -- seeing people on the street, trees, birds, life being lived -- might be a time when one feels most in touch with nature, and God. In terms of meditation.. I've read about all sorts of different practices that don't involve serious concentration and silence. Some might use a gong, mandala, incense, mala, or other outward sound/sight/smell/touch tools to aid in the practice, no?

Wow... And yes, we are. Me more than some

I'd prefer just one box: κοσμοπολίτης

Yes, top to bottom like that. As far as 溪, considering that nobody's objected to it, and that there is a person with the name 谷溪, I think you're safe. It's a cool name It's not really pertinent, but out of interest, the painter signs his name thusly:

I'm glad I wasn't still sipping my tea when I read this. My computer prefers being dry.. If this is true, 5-10 years too late, but I now realise what I was doing wrong all those years. I honestly can't believe that a girl might have not danced with me because I wasn't grinding my erect penis into her leg...

I don't pay much attention to politics, but as far as this... we're a democracy, apparently, so it doesn't really matter what's "better", just what people are convinced they want (not to say that any other form of government would be "better"). Salmond for "Yes" Brown for "No" The sophistry continues...

Don't ! I felt I should apologise because I hadn't been very clear or thorough with my comment. Well..defensiveness is part of being human... I think one reason many of us are here discussing Dao and Zen and other things is that we're trying to be a little less defensive, let go of our egos... that's definitely one of the reasons I'm here. Don't be surprised if I get defensive in the future... Me too