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有可能哈

It would seem likely that this has been discussed here before, but being a fairly wide topic, I'm not really sure how to find it... How do you talk to people who disregard any idea or discussion that hasn't been approved by Stephen Hawking? To give them a name, perhaps 'scientific absolutists' -- people who disregard anything that isn't expressed in purely modern scientific language, or isn't strictly in line with current scientific thinking (as if it is the be-all and end-all of human knowledge). i.e. if it's not about bosons, it's nonsense I suppose I consider myself atheist (if I had to label it..I've never believed in "God"), and I have always been interested in science -- and rarely if ever had reason to doubt scientific findings. But there are so many proud atheists out there who are so devout in their dedication to / belief in science and modern technology that their dogma / behaviour isn't a far cry from that of Christian or Muslim fundamentalists, and trying to get them to see that they probably don't know everything they think they know feels just as strenuous as discussing the Bible with a creationist. How to talk to them? Not "convert" them, but get them to understand their arrogance? To look at things from another perspective? I'm sure many have experienced difficulty with this...?

Yes I forgot about the "classical" part! edit: So being that the seal script 浴 implies a valley stream in one character, would you suggest just the one character? or add a second? (流、溪...?)

Whatever you do use, if you want to make it look pretty I quite like this site: http://www.skyfont.com/?char=%E8%B0%B7%E6%BA%AA&font=%E5%8D%9A%E6%B4%8B%E8%A1%8C%E4%B9%A67000&template=1024-880&layout=2&size=128&hspace=0&vspace=64&forecolor=%23000000&backcolor=%23ffffff (I assume you have access to an image editor to have made your current avatar...)

This is a good point, though in modern Chinese 浴 means bath (which probably doesn't make a difference since we're talking Daoism, not modern China, but thought I'd point it out to be thorough!) As far as the second character, 流 , as in English, is both a noun and verb (a stream, to stream), which creates a little ambiguity. I don't think a stream in a valley would be called a 谷流 溪 is just a noun, and I think might be better. There's actually a Chinese painter called 谷溪, perhaps you could steal his signature

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This may often be true -- the famous translators are famous for a reason (hopefully because they are the best) -- but at the same time I believe that sticking close to tradition and not questioning accepted ideas in any realm of life is almost always bad. You will probably find me disagreeing with much of the consensus on each chapter, partly because I think that everything should be questioned, and partly because I truly believe that many translators have simply misunderstood -- partly because they themselves weren't questioning enough.

ion, my apologies. I haven't studied the Chinese text of this chapter closely yet, so I wasn't commenting on whether "humility" or "humiliation" is a better choice, I just wanted to point out that in English there is a difference. Looking at the Chinese, I think I agree with your choice. All the meanings, past or present, I can find for 辱 are concerned with disgrace, shame, insult, dishonour, and humiliation -- not humility/humbleness.

I noticed that fellow member Chang's location is listed as "Cloud hidden, whereabouts unknown", which I recognised as from a poem I recently tried translating (but gave up, because Lin's translation is just fine as it is). For those who don't know, the poet was named 贾岛 Jia Dao, and he...did poems. I thought he might make for some interesting 'light' translation (light compared to the DDJ, I think) and appreciation. 《尋隱者不遇》 松下問童子 言師採藥去 只在此山中 雲深不知處 Seeking the Master but not Meeting I asked the boy beneath the pines He said: the Master’s gone alone herb picking somewhere on the mount cloud-hidden, whereabouts unknown - tr. Lin Yutang Failing to Find the Hermit Beneath the pine, I asked of the child. "My master's gone for herbs grown wild; He should just be in the mountain there, Deep, way deep in the clouds somewhere - tr. Frank C Yue ? Beneath a pine I asked a little child He said the Master went to gather herbs. Alone was he upon this mountainside, The clouds so deep he knew not where he was - tr. ? 《剑客》 十年磨一劍 霜刃未曾試 今日把示君 誰有不平事 The Swordsman For ten years I have been polishing this sword; Its frosty edge has never been put to the test. Now I am holding it and showing it to you, sir: Is there anyone suffering from injustice? - tr. James J.Y. Liu ? The Swordsman Ten years sharpening one sword Its frosty blade thus untested Today I present it to my lord Who has an injustice? - tr. me Please feel free to add poems and/or your own translations. And/or comments on such.

They are cognates, but in modern English humility and humiliation are not the same. humility: a modest or low view of one's own importance humiliate: make (someone) feel ashamed and foolish by injuring their dignity and self-respect, especially publicly

by 范曾

Once I got to really understand that I really didn't understand... I smiled.

Sure. But if a conversation -- an exchange of ideas -- is to be more than just a yes-game (which is not interesting.. indeed, not really a conversation), not every participant will agree with everything else every other participant says. No two people believe the same things in the same ways. That being the case, any conversation is going to have some measure of convincing, or the potential of changing someone's mind. Your comment is proof of that, I think. You wouldn't have posted if there wasn't at least a small part of you that didn't think you might help someone if they took note of your position, agreed, and changed their position accordingly.

"Caminante, no hay camino. Se hace camino al andar." ("Traveller, there is no path. The path is made by walking.") -- Antonio Machado

I did mention it to someone, but can't blame you for not reading through all 4 pages.. I had had a conversation with a good friend, about "life etc" (nature of reality, nature of man, quantum physics, all sorts). We have always enjoyed discussing all sorts of topics over the years, and disagreed about many things quite happily, but his refusal/inability to see the world from any different perspective has often been vexing. And I'm sure my way of looking at things vexes him, but I have studied the sciences (we were in the same physics class, and separately he studied chemistry and maths, and I biology and philosophy) whereas he has never attempted to study any aspect of Eastern philosophy (or Western, for that matter). The other thing is, I know he's not entirely happy in his head -- he has said as much -- and wonder if another perspective wouldn't help him, as it's helped/helping me. Yes... this seems to be the consensus. I'm not as serene and loving as I could be, but getting there! Thanks for the thoughts.

A scientist vs a creationist? [sarcasm] Well, that's just precisely what we're talking about! [/sarcasm] I'd prefer you didn't lump open-mindedness with blind faith and ignorance.

What kind of television would be made by people with no imagination? I kid, of course. But mentioning the Skeptic Society, this article is interesting: http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/12-03-07/#feature This is one of the problems I have with modern acceptance of science. People are being taught not to question it, even though science itself is the process of questioning things. The statements they used are all what I would consider to be obvious nonsense. In other other words, there exist both people with knowledge of science who believe in nonsense, and skeptics who know little about science. And all in between.

Well, for me it's not a religion. It's simply a way of looking at the world. I don't really know where or why religious notions ever came into it.

A minute or 2 in, aaannnd... yeah, it's a kid's show about why science is so "awe-suuum"... Are you trying to take the piss?

Thanks. Based off the first few minutes, he's not gonna sit through it....but I'll watch it and perhaps be able to talk to him with a little more understanding

Well, you're talking to someone who believes that the modern DDJ is an accumulation of wisdom passed down by many people at many times through history -- there was never one Laozi, but many. But I will get to the HHJ one day, and decide for myself...

I'm not familiar with the whole Taoist canon, or even the whole TTC. Could you point me towards this verse/chapter/book? Yes I can't really disagree with that

Well it does seem impertinent to disagree with someone like Henricks who has 30 years experience on me, but for now I'll continue to approach it as a complete document. Where would accepting yin be without troublesome yang?

This is where you lost me. Though I've heard about people manifesting themselves elsewhere, I'm not sure I believe it, and as far as I am aware, none of these other things have ever happened..