dust

Looking at the TTC as a whole, much is considered "missing" from the GD, but looking at the GD itself, and trying to learn what was being said, I'm trying to look at it from the angle that anything post-GD is "extra". The GD is by far the earliest known version, and with as many differing versions as there are, the TTC as we know it today is clearly a product of some centuries of amending and addition by a number of people, so it seems unfair that everyone should treat the GD as if it were written by a child who simply didn't understand the intricacies of the newer versions.. And as far as chapter 30 is concerned (save a couple of individual character problems), the GD version as a whole makes absolute sense -- concise and with a clear message, the "missing" lines are entirely unnecessary to follow it. Also, I have an irascible tendency towards arguing against popular opinion....forgive me..

I started with this: http://www.docin.com/p-309516841.html and of course a scan of the GD itself and found some character variant websites For 差 A number of variants here: http://dict.variants.moe.edu.tw/yitia/fra/fra01153.htm And the meaning, I took from: http://dict.shufaji.com/word-897.html “造字本义：手持禾谷在脱粒器具上搓转，使谷子脱粒” 差 seems to be the closest, and as none of its meanings (error/differ/bad/grind) seem very likely, and all other versions use 佐, the writer probably meant 佐. But that's not what he wrote, so...I'm just trying things... I should also have noted that after 善者果而已不以取剛 The gentle man achieves results not through strength. there is a 。on the slip, which is why I translated that line the way I did (similarly to Addiss http://terebess.hu/english/tao/addiss.html#Kap30 but noting that 者 means person -- 善者 good/gentle person) Also, as far as the last part of Henricks's translation...he uses brag, arrogant, and conceited in 3 different lines. The GD characters are: 癹 -- which meant "flatten" -- also listed as 伐，"cut down, subjugate, attack, brag" 喬 -- which means "tall, lofty, proud" or 驕, also "proud" 矝 -- which means "pity, show sympathy, conceited" Though every one, using a less ancient meaning, could be translated similarly (brag, proud, conceited) I question why we wouldn't consider other meanings?

The Chinese that I've used is quite different from the received version. Many will probably disagree with some of the choices in both transcription and translation... but I think the chapter works well like this: 以衜差人今者 To conquer with the Way, 不谷以兵剛於天下 There is no need for war; 善者果而已不以取剛 The gentle man achieves results not through strength. 果而弗癹 Result without destruction, 果而弗喬 Result without pride, 果而弗矝 Result without pity, 是謂果而不剛 Is called result without strength; 亓事好 This is good* 差 -- ancient version of 搓, to grind (millet). Listed as 佐 (assist) in most sources. Obviously "grind" is an odd meaning... 今 -- as far as I can tell, originally this meant to bow the head and mumble in submission. Also odd? -- but, combined, 差人今者 could therefore mean "grind into submission" ? Just a thought. 剛 -- listed as 强 in all sources I've come across so far, but to me looks much closer to this variant: http://www.zdic.net/z/84/js/201DD.htm which means "rigid/strong" -- so, similar to "force" 癹 -- normally listed as 伐, the GD character has 4 right hands above one larger right hand. To flatten (grass). * Most sources end with 好长. On the GD, however, there is a clear ending mark after 好, and the next chapter (15) begins with "长古..."

Alan addresses everything well! I originally used the terms "prickles" and "goo" in the OP, but worried that many people wouldn't know exactly what I was talking about Just being on this site shows that you're not quite the type I was talking about... Though I too am not... convinced... by a lot of the things I read on TTB You don't find it interesting? Even how it all relates to Tao? Originally I posted because I had had a long conversation with an old, close friend. We talked over drinks, for much of an evening, about all sorts of things, and the conversation (d)evolved into discussion about human nature, the nature of reality, quantum physics, etc. I'm not a big talker when I meet most people face to face, but have never been able to stay away from a good discussion about philosophy/science/art/politics etc I would love for my friend, and some other people I know, to be able to understand a bit more about my beliefs/perspective on life.

Ah! If that's the case, I am 辠 ...

Onra!!

it was between "suffering" and "hardship", and I decided to go Buddhist

My own understanding of Laozi and Zhuangzi is that trying to achieve immortality is utterly futile. As front is to back and light is to dark, so to be born is to die. Someone who doesn't die is only half a thing. Immortality opposes the Way. It may be that in another time, or an infinite number of other times throughout time, we will each live again. But recognizing and accepting the fact that we are all basically on the verge of death at any moment during this time is a liberation. 夫唯弗居也 是以弗去也

For the sake of discussion...(from the perspective of the kind of person I know who would argue against this on principle) What precisely is this "absolute heart"? And where? A human is nothing more than his mind. If we take away seeing, hearing, tasting, touching, smelling, and thinking -- all the ways we perceive or interpret reality -- what are we left with?

Attempting to use modern characters the structure of which is as close as possible (as far as my limited understanding goes) to how they appear on the GD slips. The meaning doesn't really change, but I feel like slightly different insight is possible. 辠莫厚唬甚欲 Nothing inflicts suffering more than deep desire, 咎莫僉唬谷㝵 No fault is more common than greed, 化莫大唬不智足 No turmoil is greater than not knowing what is enough. 辠 -- rather than 罪, we see 自 + 辛 == self + hardship == crime / sin / hardship 唬 -- this character appears in place of 於 throughout much of the GD, and is also the character I couldn't quite understand in chapter 19 (所/乎属 == 唬豆 [not precisely 豆, but a character similar in structure]) 谷㝵 -- assume not a typo and could the intended meaning perhaps be "deep (as a gorge) desire/obtainment", i.e. greed? 智 -- same as 知

Ahem... you're not supposed to have thoughts! Yes, I wasn't sure that people would like "lives in nothingness", or even if I did, but at the same time there doesn't seem to be a literal and nice-sounding word or phrase to translate 无為 / 亡為 without also having to add an explanation in brackets... I like Feng's "the sage goes about doing nothing", but in English that kind of implies laziness rather than wisdom Actually, today I found a different transcription of the GD with characters much closer to the originals, and have some more thoughts about your thoughts... Assuming we are still talking about the sage, I do agree with your thoughts on the final few lines. However... My original interpretation of the final few lines (before reading many other translations and being swayed by them) was the same as Feng's: that we're no longer talking about the sage doing stuff, but about the ten thousand things themselves. I'd like to go back to that: 萬勿作而弗怠也 Life creates without resting, 為而弗志也 Acts without ambition, 成而弗居 Succeeds and does not dwell; 夫唯弗居也 是以弗去也 Not to dwell means not to leave 勿 -- odd, but that is how it's written -- we can assume another "typo", I guess. 怠 -- the character could possibly be this, which would make as much sense, even though the meaning changes Not to dwell, not to leave -- agreed, we're talking about not leaving the Dao, but also generally about the nature of reality? If one doesn't stay in a place, one cannot leave it; if the sage, as the ten thousand, does not dwell on his "achievements", there can be no loss of sense of achievement, or no non-achievement; the Dao stays nowhere, and goes nowhere..

As I see it, your use of the terms "lazy" and "useless" refer to how "ordinary" people perceive a person who does no work -- generally not realising that though there are people who believe work needs to be done and are indeed too lazy to do it, in the wise man's case, it is because he has seen that there really is no work that needs to be done: the work itself is the useless thing. Nature takes care of itself, and one can get by simply eating fruit and singing songs. On one hand, I see what you mean (if this is what you mean). On the other hand, I don't see that the wise man is literally supposed to do nothing. As discussed in another thread, 无为 is the practice of non-interference -- seeing when nothing needs to be done, and seeing when it does; guiding things along when it might be beneficial, but never exerting extreme force. I also don't really like the idea of an entirely dispassionate wise man. He might look upon existence from a different perspective to the average person, but he can still be in love with it. To me, if humans have a function, it is the appreciation of life.

No American I've ever met has (until I put them onto it)... it was mostly popular in the UK in the '90s

Though it's not something I'd admit to many male friends, I do have a weakness for good dancing. It also doesn't hurt that many of the pro female dancers on Strictly are incredibly sexy...

Thaaaaaank you Maybe I can finally cross one off the list

Some changes, based on the GD: 天下皆知美之為美也 惡已 All know beauty for beauty because ugliness is, 皆知善此斯不善已 Know good by what is not good. 有亡之相生也 Life and death give birth to each other,* 難易之相成也 Difficult and easy complete each other, 長短之相形也 Long and short determine each other, 高下之相呈也 High and low surpass each other, 音聲之相和也 Voice and sound harmonize each other, 先後之相隨也 Front and back follow each other; 是以聖人居亡為之事 The wise man lives in nothingness,** 行不言之教 Teaches without talking, 萬物作而弗治也 Creates without controlling,*** 為而弗志也 Acts without ambition, 成而弗居 Succeeds and does not dwell; 夫唯弗居也 是以弗去也 Not to dwell means not to leave**** * 亡 in this context means the same as 无，i do realise, but when we're saying they 相生 "Life and death" seems much more poetic ** "lives in nothingness" -- thoughts? *** like God? ****I still can't see 居 and 去, in relation to each other, as anything but to live and to leave

From a great stand up, he pretends to be himself 40 years in the future. It's funny and touching and brilliant.

I'm just today, I'm just the way I amI'm every single day I amI'm February, April, March and even May I amI'm only what you make me hope I'm what you pray I amToday I am, I'm never really far away I amYou better scope me like the hunter does the prey I amYou play "I am" out in the picture yesterday I amI'm everything your memories say I am Nowhere Fast by Blackalicious

No need to force the progression just ride the windYou'll know the answer to the where and the why and whenIf you keep workin' for your search you will find the endThough at the end you find it only begins againSee at the end you'll see it only begins againAnd everything you learn you're only rememberin' First in Flight by Blackalicious

It does help to know that others have come to similar conclusions, and a couple of those words bear further thought. I have been wondering about other language translations of Laozi, but don't speak any other languages... Thanks for the translation (I assume you had to type it out yourself?)

絕智棄辯 民利百倍 Refute wisdom, abandon discussion, and the people will profit a hundredfold; 絕巧棄利 盜賊亡有 Refute skill, abandon profit, and there will be no more thievery; 絕僞棄慮 民復季子 Refute falseness, abandon scheming, and the people will return to innocence; 三言以為文不足 But these three sayings alone are not enough 或命之或所屬 見素保樸 少私寡欲 Cherish simplicity, lessen selfishness and desire That's what i've got so far. Not satisfied with anything i've come up with for the missing part. edit: apparently the character I had written instead of 僞 can't be shown. Based on the bamboo, I had written 為 + 心 http://www.zdic.net/z/8e/js/2287A.htm

罪莫厚於甚欲 There is no crime bigger than deep desire, 咎莫僉於欲㝵 There is no fault more common than desire to obtain, 化莫大於不知足 There is no turmoil greater than not knowing what is enough*. 知足之為足 Knowing what is enough, and making it enough, 此恆足矣 This is truly** enough i realise how ironic this is -- probably could have seen that the first translation I read got the meaning across sufficiently, and left it at that. Well..I'll leave it at this. * 'sufficient' would perhaps be more technically correct for 足 but 'enough' sounds better to my ears. More idiomatic. ** toyed with 恒 as 'enduring' but again, to my ears...I prefer the sound of 'truly'

Indeed, we've got the overall meaning down. In fact, every translation I've read so far gets the point across fairly well, and we don't need to be very particular about the exact translation... so I'm being very pedantic, and perhaps putting an unnecessary amount of effort into the particulars of the GD chapter. But still....it's bugging me, linguistically. Gramatically, if we treat 咎莫僉於欲㝵 the same as: 罪莫厚於甚欲 -- crime not bigger than deep desire and 化/禍莫大於不知足 -- disaster/turmoil not greater than not knowing enough we surely get 咎莫僉於欲㝵/得 -- blame not more (people) than desire to obtain Which I would like to translate as "There is no fault more common than desire to obtain"

Which rules are we referring to..?

OK.. just looking at characters for a moment: 咎 -- a verb -- to blame or fault someone 僉 -- this character is written in GD with an extra radical at the bottom, but if the meaning is the same as 僉, we can assume "all (people)" ? 欲 -- in the third line not written as in the first line (甚欲) but as 谷 -- which seems like an odd typo to make just a few characters after writing it in the very same chapter...? -- but if we assume they meant 欲... 得 -- to get/obtain, but looks like it's written as 㝵 without 彳-- http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E3%9D%B5 Which could mean we have something like 咎莫僉於欲㝵 blame not all (than) desire obtain/obstruct/offend/complacence ...?