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道可道也，非恆道也 The walkable way is not the Way, 名可名也，非恆名也 The nameable name is not the Name; 無名天地之始也 The beginning of heaven and earth is nameless, 有名萬物之母也 The mother of all things is named. 故恆無欲也，以觀其眇 So, free of desire, perceive the Unperceivable, 恆有欲也，以觀其所噭 Full of desire, perceive the manifest; 兩者同出 The two are of one, 異名同謂 Differently named, though called the same, 玄之又玄 Obscure beyond the obscure, 眾眇之門 The door to the unperceived From the first MWD text (because it has 有欲 instead of 又欲) 2 things I'm especially unsure about: 眇 in the received text is 妙, something which was giving me trouble. I love the character (女 + 少 = young woman) but it wasn't obvious to me whether it meant subtle, mysterious, wonderful, or what. Young women are all these things, of course, as is Dao, but I want one word. I had it as "mystery". This other miao seems to clear it up a bit for me: 目 + 少 = difficult to see/perceive. According to one source, both insignificant and boundless. The Invisible, the Unperceivable? 噭 in the received texts is 徼, also giving me trouble. Most have it as "manifestations", though I thought maybe "the edge" (i.e. "free of desire, see the mystery; full of desire see only its edge"). 噭 seems to mean "shout/call" (or possibly the orifice of an animal ), so...I'm not sure at all. But I've chosen "manifest" as something tangible, as opposed to "unperceivable" ......so....there ya go.

I loves all that stuff. Partly I suppose because I heard a lot of it when I was a kid. Though again I'm not entirely knowledgeable about the history of it. He was incredible.

Ah. I found a Chinese entry which very much agrees. 　1. 文言发语词：～天地者。 　2. 文言助词：逝者如斯～。 　3. 文言指示代词，相当于“这”或“那”：～猫至。 I see, I see. Even so, directly translated it can simply be: "Without struggle, no fault/blame", right?

This is something I struggle with too -- experiences very similarly to yours, it seems...almost exactly. So my advice might not be worth much, as I don't cope very well either. I hope that following Laozi can be the answer; that rather than causing more conflict, it helps you to solve conflict; that one can find a way to go with the flow, and appreciate what is available to appreciate.

Cling might be better than linger. Hmm...

I'm not very knowledgeable about such. Do you mean guys like Led Zep, Pink Floyd, the Stones? And do 'blacker' rockers make it on to such lists? James Brown, Al Green etc? I'm now listening to:

Wuh.. huh.... For that to be the original, and assuming that meaning really was implied, certainly changes the original intent of the chapter. There some things I'd query, though. Looking directly at the text, the following, simple meanings are apparent to me: 水善利万物而不争 Water benefits all (life/things) without struggle" 居众人之所亚 Stay where the masses (of people) [ugly/deformed ==] do not want to" 故几于道 So/therefore close to the Dao" ... 夫唯不爭，故無尤 Man doesn't struggle/strive, so/therefore no fault/blame Reading into it with knowledge of the possible implications I can certainly see where you're coming from, but on the surface -- forgetting the idea that it could be about irrigation -- isn't the only direct reference to controlling water in that character 治? But that one character is important, so... I dunno...

Yeah. Or, rather than avoiding either, we appreciate the long and the short of life, and that they cannot exist separately. When we are able to fully appreciate that, we're free. "A man who does not linger does not leave" is not quite how people usually translate it, I suppose for me, a lot of these things come down to the idea of death...

Indifference to...anything? Years ago, I started to come to terms with the fact that I can't change the world. Now, I'm starting to accept the idea that the world is always changing, and that I actually can change the world, if I try hard enough -- but that though it would be different, it wouldn't make a difference.

A couple of albums by Mary Black. Songs like No Frontiers, Song for Ireland, Carolina Rua,Vanities, etc. Beautiful! And in the car, Cinemetropolis by Blue Scholars. Not sure if there are any hip-hop heads here?

Yes. I suppose that my own preference is to keep things as simple as possible, finding words and phrasings that are interpretable in as many ways as possible. Thanks for your help, by the way. I'm learning a lot from these translation topics!

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Insofar as anything is eternal, then 道 is surely eternal, of course! However... It was just a thought, but my point was that in English, we could denote the 'eternal way' by simply calling it "the Way". dawei, it's late and I'll read them in more detail tomorrow, but those topics are excellent. I certainly don't not like them. Actually, doesn't your topic on 恒 in a way help to confirm that a word like 'eternal' can't truly satisfy the full meaning of 恒? It's the full, eternal, the ultimate and highest, which in my mind could be said simply by calling it the Way. Like a god as opposed to God -- we don't call him the eternal God, because eternal, ultimate, and highest are all implied with the capital G...?

Harness, conform, regulate. Interesting. Yes, I think that in the end, "The highest good is like water" is satisfactory for me -- whether one harnesses or conforms with the idea of water, we're still saying essentially the same thing: the way water is is good. Mr Taoist Texts -- Very interesting...the analogy is certainly sound. So are you suggesting that a 治水 'regulatory' translation would be preferable to other versions of the text?

天下皆知美之為美亞已 All know beauty for beauty because ugliness is, 皆知善斯不善矣 Know good by what is not good. 有無之相生也 Existence and absence give birth to each other, 難易之相成也 Difficult and easy complete each other, 長短之相刑也 Long and short determine each other, 高下之相盈也 High and low surpass each other, 音聲之相和也 Voice and sound harmonize each other, 先後之相隨恆也 Front and back follow each other; 是以聖人居無為之事 The wise man goes about doing nothing, 行不言之教 Teaches without talking; 萬物昔而弗始 Life is, with no beginning, 為而弗侍也 Does, without serving, 成功而弗居也 Succeeds, and does not linger; 夫唯弗居是以弗去 A man who does not linger does not leave

Probably not the one you're thinking of, but the Addiss version has "Tao called Tao is not Tao. Names can name no lasting name" I like the simplicity/directness of it... One thing about Chinese, compared to English, is the lack of Capitalization. I've been thinking about the idea that the 恆 or 常 that people translate as 'eternal' is really just the author's way of saying "the Way with a capital W". And many translations translate 道 as "Dao", which is not a word in English -- in the original Chinese, 道 is a word that has a number of other meanings. The closest word in English is "way" -- so why not translate it as such? What I mean is: A way that can be walked is not the Way A name that can be named is not the Name

Huh... well don't I feel silly. The "versions" of the MWD I found on the Chinese web are not even close to this... there's a lot more discrepancy than I realised. I've now found the proper excavated versions on ctext. Thanks for pointing that out. Well, if you're up for some more discussion: 治水 -- this is confusing. 若水 and 如水 seem close enough not to worry about, but 治....control, regulate..? Is there a meaning of 治 even close to "similar/like" ? 心善瀟 -- xiao here means “deep and clear", yes? Which would seem a slightly simpler translation than 淵... 予善信 -- we seem to have combined 予善天 and 言善信..? In which case, the longer versions would take precedent? 有争 -- have I been staring at the screen too long? An exact contradiction of the others??

You're welcome, and thank you I do have a fair few more art things, but a rather rag-tag collection, and mostly not Dao-related..here is one other Dao-y piece (an attempt at depicting the taiji/yinyang symbol...) OK...my only knowledge of the 8 Immortals comes from Jackie Chan movies! I'll have a look for some. Thanks.

Yes, I fell in love with it on sight; something about the fierce, protective stance of the tiger and the woman sitting sidesaddle, casually riding along... Thanks Brian! (are you really a Brian or do you just love Life of Brian?) Thanks. I 'painted' from scratch, using an electronic pen. The same process as you might use traditionally -- make a sketch, paint layers over it -- but with the added benefit that you can edit and make changes far more easily than with a real brush and paint. More recently I've been focusing on traditional calligraphy...perhaps some time I will show that too, though I'm not very confident Your work is beautiful. I'd post in that topic, but this is my last post of the day (being new to the forum I'm restricted) I love especially the Yin & Yang, and many of the hexagrams -- the Abysmal, the Joyous, the Clinging... Very striking. I wonder, do you sell them separately or as a collection?

I need some listening practice! Thanks, will check it out tonight.

Yes. Thus far I've only really looked into some of Ma Yuan's stuff, but it is something I want to try. However, it would be beneficial for me to become more competent with traditional materials before wasting reams of paper! Well, thanks I used Photoshop, which makes the whole process a lot more fool-proof, if somewhat more clinical. What I mean is, with a computer one can make a thousand mistakes, and correct them all with no trouble, but there's a relative lack of control and expression which one finds with a real brush or pen....

Yes! That there is a natural, relative relationship between each one is kind of what I was trying to say before. There is a sense of "You can't build a house in the sky, or communicate with people based on lies", and that perhaps each phrase is a version of the 'vessel and its emptiness' -- you can't have one without the other. At the same time, we might also note that 善 primarily means "good" in the sense of kind or gentle. Just a thought, but perhaps: 居善地 Find a home's good in the land 心善淵 Find a heart's good in its depth 予善天 Find my good in the heavens // Find giving's good in the heavens 言善信 Find a word's good in trust 正善治 Find straightness in control 事善能 Find a task's good in one's ability 動善時 Find an action's good in the timing 夫唯不爭故無尤 When a man ceases to strive, he finds....?

Ah..well... originally, I've written "The goodness of a home depends on the earth", which I agree isn't ideal. The thing about characters like this is that they are often interchangeably verb or noun, and verses like this seem to use that ambiguity to their advantage: perhaps there is no single translation. As I've seen in above posts, perhaps something like "dwelling", which is similarly inerpretable as noun or verb...?

Serene in the face of contention -- this is basically what I'm thinking to get across, yes. Water itself is never actually still; even in a still pool with no ripples, below the surface it's buzzing with energy. Yet when something 'contends' with it, it moves out of the way. It takes the easiest paths, drops to the lowest depths, and still 'triumphs' Some interesting points! Some questions: 1. Why "immobility" ? 2. "goodness of giving found in heaven" -- because heaven supplies us with all, i see..but what do you think of translating 予 as "I/me"? 3. "No fault or blame" -- I need to look deeper into the character 尤, perhaps. Your point about the severity of consequences at that point in time is well received. I will look at this post in more depth later. Hadn't noticed it before. Thanks!

Yes, this is a problem. It's something I've been struggling with: in the Chinese, these lines seem quite cohesive. As H.E. has said above (I'll reply to that longest post last!), the chapter seems to contain a meaning along the lines of: "In face of contention, start with earth-like stillness, a profound heart, and the giving nature of Heaven. Then, ensure that your words are true, sincere, and from the heart. Do not waver in uprightness, and if actions must be taken, do them with great ability and timing." However, the text doesn't directly say this. It simply makes some statements about the nature of things in some fairly abstract ways, and leaves us to infer...