iain

The song remains the same; It is eternal.

The steadier the breath; the less the need to fight: breath just right and you can sing as the sun goes down ... Still working on that formula myself, good luck with yours. Your kids will love the song and sleep better for it.

It is a model that has been used extensively in the past; and is reflected in the way the scientific mind has perceives the working of the brain and consciousness. Yes humans in "civil" groups sometimes turn and kill their kings and Queens too. So the model can be applied to a social groups in that respect, but not to the mind nor to any notion of the norm. I correlate the city with an anthill; I don't think Bees go to war in the same way that ants and humans do.

The result of which is that eventually no one understands how what they are building works; when it breaks they just throw it away. The real crux of knowledge is in harnessing creativity, to my mind this model destroys the creative process, actively.

I think that it is a natural state that emerges from city life and agriculture; and is exactly that which we try to take a step back from in meditation. It is a state of being that suits some more than others, as natural selection does its thing. The question to my mind is "do we want to nurture the traits in ourselves that this lifestyle demands"; it is happening anyway.

I couldn't agree with you more, and that is exactly what I have said; at least I thought is was. Is there no central unit around which all other activities are orchestrated in a hive? Is there not a epigenetic phenomenon that works as a web or field binding them all together, as one organisme? This is how many see human culture/society and in reflection the cells, neurons, in the brain. I am saying that this is not a good analogy; I am not certain what you have understood by my post. I was inferring that the ego is a parasite organism and is not our natural state of being; You seem to have said the same in a different way. Beekeeping; you are blessed to live so close to nature.

Hello closrapexa, With all due respect, you might find that you are somewhat outdated in your model of the functioning of the human brain; We can no longer make any such comparison between a beehive and the brain as there is no center of reasoning; recent research pointing to a different model. That of a neural network,resembling modern internet computer functionality; without anyone center for cognition. All the different cell groups in the neurological network communicate independently, and memory is stored upon a code that runs, quite arguably interdimensionally, between all of the cells. Thus consciousness is emerging from rather more than any central cpu; as such there is no Queenbee. The Queenbee of the old cerebral model could be equated rather well though to a parasite of intelligence, the ego; the host of which is the underlying self. Thus it is paradoxically the parasitic ego that fools the self into believing that it is the doer that it is the person or a central cognative unit or place. It is interesting that occidental society is structured upon this outdated rather primitive model; the idea or image of that which represents a hunter gatherer, negates entirely the obvious social complexity of the stone age, circumnavigates some rather large gaps in our temporal scientific records, and as such is itself a rather primitive albeit somewhat aggressive projection of occidental thought; This is obvious when it is compared with other existing models or bodies of knowledge from other successful societies. We must therefore also consider the forceful and projective nature required to be an occidental researcher; when examining any models created in and by such a tradition or by such anthropological and Historical practices. History I will state; is written by the most dominant psychological phenotypes; that does not make them the norm.

Yes you have mentioned your desire to understand me better; believe to have expressed myself very openly in all the communications that we have had as yet on this forum; I have even offered some very deep information as to my own background and consequent reasons for my philosophy's. Eliminating illusion from our life is a tricky thing, especially if the illusion is held steady by the mass delusion of the society in which you live ... Being balanced in a social structure that is on a collision course; is no balance to have at all, it is an illusion of security held steady by fear of change but time flows and errodes. Given the current state of our ecology and economic system; any sane person should be completely unhinged right now. Do those who detach from the norm have free will in insanity; or are they perhaps behaving as part of a very natural epigenetic function, that is in essence, natures cure for our mass delusion? Rather like crabs that spiral backwards into the sand before a storm, is this free will or a survival instinct? I am quite amazed that no mention has been made of the depth of the connection between the murders from the clock tower, the brain tumor and its being visible in a Jyotish chart; from way back at the start of this thread; we do, it would seem, see only that which we want to see, and it would appear to me that the greatest illusion is in not seeing certain things at all. Perhaps as Yasjua has wisely said; this is related to consciousness; I like to think due to the resolution of our perception, the frequency of our thought. To some extent we have little free will in this matter; some are born able to hear and see much subtler nuances than others, though perhaps this is also somewhat the result of training through meditation. I mention this though because we tend to assume that everyone's perception is the same as our own, the very balance of this perception emanating from our different sensory organs, the balance of which can change, to great extent, everything that we perceive; This directly affects all of our choices. To be ignorant of this is to have little conscious awareness of the majority of our sensual inputs, thus is to be immersed in our own allusions, as we project blindly, yet very assuredly outwards. To my mind; in order to understand what will is we need spiritual training or experience, experience that kills many; to think that will is free is an indoctrination. The donkey thinks that the carrot at the end of the stick is free; which is why he pursues it so relentlessly.

If you feel the need for a label; Kashmir Shavit is my philosophical system, grounded in experience of God Consciousness for an understanding of the fabric of reality. I am currently studying matrika chakra with my guru. I do have a strong affinity with the schools of thought that explain the veda, as satya sanAtana dharma is an obvious root to strive for in ones understanding gleaned in God consciousness. I never used to believe in karmen, though ones perspective changes with knowledge and time, as we grow. We can not possibly judge dharma artha karma and moksha; otherwise said, the dimensions of our will; without first understanding reincarnation; the subject is senseless without. Thus knowledge is inextricably linked to the appearance of causality, or lack there of. Should it be that you agree with me, that illusions and delusions are the fabric of sandcastles, you may also then agree that knowledge of the system by which these are manifest is vital to a stable social structure; implying that the notion of free will is inherently unstable; no matter how great it is for rallying armies.

Hello Yasjua, Though I do agree with you in what you say; I feel that I must add some thought here; that some models are far more advanced than others; that that which we are calling a model, is also the underlying fabric of the society that created it, inseparable in many ways from it, it is of society's creation. As such it is no obvious matter to see that we are still acting, or behaving, under ones own societies limited channels of thought and behaviour; all whilst believing that we are freed from it. Now, in regards to the simplification and limitation of any model, I shall have to disagree; due to the accuracy of the model that I am currently studying, that its foundations inverse the very foundation of my own childhood teachings, which can be admittedly a difficult thing to manage, though the more I learn the more I see how my own culture is absorbing the wisdom of all others inadvertantly all whilst consuming them literally; during which the propagators of which chant the mantra of "free will! free trade" as if it were a subtil war cry. Should one conscious of such, watch on or act; if those crying "free will" are oblivious to the inadvertent cause, those of their unrecognised unreconciled subconscious beliefs and actions; driven by karmen? Surely, it is the culture who teaches its people to be aware of the subconscious before and whilst acting, is far superior in the nature of its thought than the culture who teaches to follow your desire and fight any who stand in your way. Yasjua, on average more Men are borne than Women; who is it then that you are you most likely to meet in the forest and how will you act? You best not hesitate here, else you end up someone elses dinner; if you are daydreaming about bedding Women this will undoubtedly be detected by your foes... Incidentally, there have been known, Women who estimate the worth of a prospective partner upon his ability to kill other Men; the head is required as a proof.

I think your suggestion is very wise rainbowvein, If you are not belly breathing you are breathing into the top of the lungs and quite possibly being aggressive. Now if you do not have time to breath; you have a very real problem, way over and above any other.

Oh nihilism is a terrible misunderstanding of life; I could not agree with you more, though I don't think that hiding things is a good way of avoiding outcomes, it tends to rather provoke the outcome feared making it manifest. Where as letting off steam stops the pot from boiling over (Boyles law I wonder if that is coincidence). I love the Indian system for its ability to direct practitioners through and beyond that state of mind, though obviously some do get stuck in it; This is all on the way to an eventual understanding Tao; from what I gather. Karma does not allow for nihilism at all; we pay for every act we make and receive in kind; it can not be clearer, to my mind. We are only headed towards a subset of futures that our present and past allow for, the wisman is aware of this and thus better able to navigate any rapids on the way; the illusion of free will, would cite rapids as being crisis and could be said to provoke delusions, which can then be exploited. I could site a doctrine that promotes free will as being a prime example of this but shall refrain from such as it may offend the less evolved occidental members.

Thank you for your clarification Marblehead, Here are a few further thoughts that you have inspired in me; you can take my response as proof of your own existence and that of the existence of your words in the previous post. What is the moon to a shellfish; and does the shellfish have free will? It does after all close when touched. We can act contrary to nature as you say, but to the detriment of our own future generations, so this behavior will be dealt with by mother nature through evolution; thus our own extinction from a particular future is an artifact of our own intelligence, an intelligence that leads us to believe that we have free will. We have evolved such because we are not particularly good at anything else. The question to my mind is; How does this affect our perception of self in the present, and consequently how this perception, if indeed an illusion, could quite reasonably cause us an ailment in us tomorrow; thus our will will have caused us a misdeed, and is therefore not free. The side note that these events are also indicated in an astrological interpretation of the shape of things at birth, is its self a whole other dimension of the same. Which to my mind compounds the issue at hand. It all comes down to a clever illusion of time, add to this the further illusion of money and we have differed all responsibility for our own actions; very clever indeed ... Or is it? ... on whose deeds are we dining out?

Hello Marblehead, I am not certain that I understand your reasoning or your point here; would you mind expanding upon that just a little for me? The relevance of the moon's cycle upon the Earth is very clear to me, especially when the nodes are implied; but I am not certain as to how Her lack of a magnetic field is relevant to the question at hand; Perhaps you could enlighten me from this doubt? note: We can rest assured that the moon is deluded about no things; She gathers a large crowd of admirers though, none the less; perhaps due to her natural charisma; even the oysters applaud her presence. If She has no free will, then I must conclude this be due to her relative moments; if Gravity does not act at a distance, how can we be certain that She has no desire?

A torus is a good example of the blending of polarities in an isolated state, in 3 dimensions and as such it is a good visual aid; now what happens to the torus if you add a 4th dimension, and a 5th etc ... Who said that math is boring? Now the fun starts when we picture the moon passing though the magnetic tail and picking up a charge it's self.