Bindi

I was very engaged in trying to bring Jeff’s dark side to the light for the well-being of this forum. It is with a similar intention that I am engaged in the examination of nonduality. I very much doubt there’s some karmic connection to either Jeff or nonduality. Our chief DB’s neidanist said he thought I had a karmic connection to a certain period in neidan because I didn’t agree with him, instead valuing Yin and Yang both. Is karma the only reason anyone has a problem with anything? If only I could be a nondual Jeffian light blob and stop troubling y’all.

This ‘being with’ is what I and at least one other have been doing as our main practice for years, especially being with emotions as they are, not running from them or dismissing them, but this is not nonduality to me, this is straight out and unapologetically honouring the feeling level. As far as I know there is no common spiritual path that honours the value of emotions, not Buddhism, not neidan, I didn’t think nonduality did but maybe I stand to be corrected. Don’t nondualists say “it’s just a story”, emotions are illusory. I have heard the nondual critique that therapists view their clients as needing therapy because they see them as “broken.” The nondualist doesn’t need therapy because nothing is broken, everything is perfect and it always has been exactly as it is. That’s nondualism. This ‘being with’ is something else, maybe nonduality 200, a broader and more humane nonduality that doesn’t flippantly devalue the emotional.

How do I give you a laugh emoji and a cup and a heart all at the same time???

This post describes the first stage of my belief system Finding true yin in yang and finding true yang in yin. A nondualist has no need to be digging around in dualism hoping to find anything there because they have leapt ahead to the great prize of nonduality. BUT… What if there is a prize to be found in duality first, to really make your basket full? To me Yin has its own beauty and true Yin is very powerful, Yang has its own beauty and true Yang is very wise. Sure once found True Yin and True Yang need to be disidentified from, but they keep operating without me being in control, and without their operating I would be less. Beyond True Yin and True Yang, there is the prize of actual nondual bliss, but having practiced and strengthened the ability to disidentify from limiting states, this too will be disidentified from. This dual path I tread can only be dismissed as folly by the nondualist, at best necessary folly for my own development stunted as it is, but I will never be persuaded that the currently popular path to nonduality is anything but a dead end. We can discuss our differences, but we are highly unlikely to ever agree.

I don’t think I can be my higher self, but that’s just an educated guess until I get to the end of the road myself. FWIW Atman as I understand it is beyond “Ahamkara (ego, non-spiritual psychological I-ness Me-ness), mind (citta, manas), and all the defiling kleshas (habits, prejudices, desires, impulses, delusions, fads, behaviors, pleasures, sufferings and fears).” All of them. How can a person live without their mind? How can a person have no behaviour, never suffer, never fear, I don’t think that’s possible, and I don’t think it’s necessary, we are human, it’s ok to be human. What I don’t think is ok is for someone to claim they are Atman consciousness whilst smoking beedies like Nisargadatta or being ruled by their personalities - “Embodied personality and Ahamkara shift, evolve or change with time, while Atman doesn't. It is "pure, undifferentiated, self-shining consciousness."” I doubt I’ll ever be that pure or undifferentiated whilst I’m alive, and again I don’t think I need to be. Enough to be in contact with the part of me that is.

So a Qualified or Conditional nondualism that necessarily excludes the needs of the body, as without this all nondualists would be dead within weeks. When Ramana and others like him spent extended time in nirvikalpa samadhi, they didn’t care for their bodies, if their body was cared for it was by others who would keep ants off them, spoon feed them etc. Were they experiencing a temporary absolute nondual state that includes bodily nondualism? Is the fact that we do have a body the hard problem of nonduality? To what extent is a nondualist identified with his/her body? For instance does a nondualist need to make choices about Clothing? Why, when clothing isn’t actually necessary a lot of the time? Some Yogi’s walk around naked, and we don’t need clothing to survive in some seasons and in some countries clothing is never needed. Is it just unexamined social convention that keeps the nondualists dressed?

"In the interior of the heart, Brahman alone shines in the form of the Atman with direct immediacy as I. To abide in the Atman, I enter the heart with an inquisitive mind or by diving deep within or by controlling the breath." Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi (Quote from Here.) Ramana says this is the Atman, a light deep in the subtle heart. Two things I notice, 1. Ramana identifies this as ‘I’. I too have come upon this light at the deepest point in my subtle heart, but I didn’t identify it as me, in fact I did the opposite, I identified it as other, and I gratefully used this light to be able to see how to initiate my next step, and then I moved on. 2. Ramana makes a deliberate choice and effort to abide in what he considers to be the Atman. A nondualist would say this is impossible. Nonetheless Ramana stuck to his nondual guns throughout most of his life including when he was dying, I think the only time that he faltered was when thieves came into his ashram, and he accepted whatever would happen to him, but he couldn’t accept that his dog might be hurt so he asked someone to take her to safety whilst nondually resigning himself to his fate. The ultimate nondual action would be to allow his dog to be hurt because that would just be how it is. An absolute nondualist cannot pick and choose what they are going to be nondual about, and the fact that even a committed nondualist who spent years in meditation to shore up his nonduality still had a preference when it came to something he loved tells me that nonduality is not IT.

How do you know what the inner self is suggesting? Also how do you know what level that suggestion is coming from? I’m not so sure we do have free will when it comes to ‘commands’ from the higher self, I have experienced it as a force as I posted above, which I literally cannot go against no matter how much I want to, and I have tried because it hasn’t aligned with my conscious choice. I do have free will to follow along with subconscious knowledge and wisdom or choose not to do so, but I am not equating higher self with the subconscious. I suspect I cannot be my higher self, my completion lies in how perfectly I can enact my higher self’s will.

“Agency is the capacity of an actor to act in a given environment.” By ‘full blown agency’ I mean the ability to HAD (Heal at a Distance), the ability to appear somewhere other than where your physical body is, overall to be able to direct a subtle force from within to interact with and act upon the material world. There might be other ways, these are the only two I am aware of. The alternative is to have no subtle force agency and learn to just accept everything as it is. This seems to me to be the position of the non-dualists, and a primary identifier of nondual experience. I have experienced it a few times in my life, in one form I am compelled to go somewhere with absolutely no logical reason, and find out when I am there that either the place is an answer to my need or someone else’s need, and in another form I am stopped as if by a force field from doing a certain action, and this has invariably been in the best interests of someone else. “I” have the potential to be the actor comprised of subtle energy, but only if this subtle energy is developed to its full potential via appropriate energy work. This developed subtle energy body is not the director, I assign that role to my Higher Self, a consciousness that cannot be directly experienced. “I” am the servant of this Higher Self, and enact what it wills from its greatly expanded perspective. Jesus and Saint Seraphim of Sarov both had the agency I’m talking about, but some Indian masters have been able to appear at a distance. In the Neidan tradition multiple ‘selves’ are produced which I gather have agency. I’m not expecting the nondually realised to not die. Nondualists speak as though they are beyond getting mad, everything just is, no need to react or get emotional because that’s just a story you’re identifying with, but the fact is they do still get mad as you say, they don’t accept reality as it is at all times. In this sense they fall back into identification with emotional or mental states. I don’t have a problem with people feeling and thinking, I believe these are part of a functioning human being, they can inform our actions in appropriate ways, and are not lesser states of perception. They are limited, but not lesser than any other state of perception, and I include nondual perception as just another state of perception. Contentment. Why did dwai ask me “What would you, bindi prefer? An agitated mind or a peaceful mind? A mind filled with anger and hatred or a mind filled with joy and love? What sense does this question make if everything just IS? Instead he identifies with a peaceful joyful and loving state as a preferred state.

Jeff Foster, nondual teacher who realised his nonduality was not authentic, and writes (above) about accepting duality as much as nonduality, the physical, emotional, and mental levels, is not able to accept these levels now that he is physically and cognitively disabled. It is at least authentic for him to acknowledge publicly “I am failing right now to accept my condition. I feel broken. I am not in love with where I am. I cannot “rest” with this shattering new reality.” “I WRITE BOOKS ABOUT ACCEPTANCE... BUT I JUST CANNOT ACCEPT THIS”. A Confession. 1st May 2021 http://r.lifewithoutacentre.com/mk/mr/nKauvvrCJ8OLrBhtl3_WWyJhPiPX3Omt8ZvYdn2aMIsAbIIeMNT6HxbCcWBe46RBt9Zc3B5snE0RnjhXoAMtjt83H5vcXnYPM_qAtAX1eCIJOeeC

Awakening from the Dream of Nonduality by Jeff Foster

There are Zen stories where someone claims to have achieved enlightenment or whatever, and they are put in a situation in which they become angry, thus proving they have not actually arrived. If you never fall back into the identification with the body or the emotions or thoughts but remain in nondual contentment permanently then you have achieved something, but you are still identifying with nondual contentment. If you didn’t identify with nondual contentment then you wouldn’t see nondual contentment as any more desirable than emotions or thoughts or the body, all things would be equal. Apech posted very early on if nonduality is seen as the ultimate then it is dual because it is set against duality. Nonduality shouldn’t differentiate between duality and nonduality, all are equally valuable, and ultimately all are limiting identification with a way of perceiving. The Atman, God, Buddha nature is inconceivable, beyond all perception, beyond all description, I suspect the closest we might ever get is hearing the echo, and this will be a great achievement.

Buddha nature is opened to, but once realised why doesn’t a Buddha just sit around in Nirvana? I gather Buddha nature desires to bring everyone else to the same realisation within themselves. What compels Buddha nature to do this? Why engage with anyone else? To the Christian it is God’s will that causes Jesus to act for the benefit of others, if we manage to become like Jesus we would also be compelled to carry out God’s will. The small voice in the stillness is not identified as my voice, it is other, it surprises me, in the external yellow court scripture “When the Green Immortal Spirit passes over and communicates with me, there is a distant echo.” I endeavour to hear the small voice, perhaps because it is a voice beyond all the perception layers, I need a guide from beyond the ‘koshas’ to guide me beyond the koshas. Some thoughts in response to your thoughts.

I think agency is negated because full blown authentic agency is so hard to establish in the appropriate place in the chain of command between mundane self and higher self. I’m thinking only one or two people ever have actually established agency to carry out the higher self’s will, unlike nondual realisation it’s incredibly rare, but to attempt to realise agency is the authentic path. Nondual realisation without agency is less than half the story.

This reminds me of the Daoist reference to turning the light around, I like the explanation given in the video below in the first three minutes (despite the rather disconcerting reference to Osho in the beginning). I didn’t watch any further than this because I’m not interested in practicing such things, I don’t see things like turning the light around as a method but rather as an outcome of following the Way.

No, it’s just me, what can I say, my spidey senses are just tingling. You could start with looking at the numbers of people who are claiming to be ‘awakened’ so quickly and easily and wonder why millions of people are now suddenly able to achieve what countless dedicated aspirants have failed to achieve for Millenia, and this despite the nondually awakened’s glaring lack of Siddhis. Sometimes things that are too easy to accomplish aren’t actually worth accomplishing, because they’re also Neti Neti.

But who is there to get thrilled, and what is there to get thrilled about, if no one exists and nothing exists, and since it doesn't matter what anyone thinks or doesn't think or knows or doesn't know anyway, because thinking and knowing are so transitory and not it, and in reality its just the imaginary us having an imaginary conversation anyway.

Maybe I should stick to the notion of ‘The Father’ who wills, as in ‘Thy [the father’s] will be done’. The ‘God’ of Jesus did have will, and it was Jesus's role to establish that will on earth, “Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” This is not the ultimately impersonal Brahman but the interested God who heals and loves.

Thinking on it a bit further, to me, the ‘Doer’ of Atman’s will is a causal force enabled when consciousness enters the central channel. This makes sense of why subtle channel work is necessary, without it there is no enabled doer, even if by some chance one can hear the will of the ‘Atman’. The Doer force remains trapped within the central channel until it is activated, at which point it can deliberately travel outside the physical body under the direction of the Atman and do all those siddhi things that the rare spiritual giants can do.

There is a right thing to do, a right thing to say, a right place to be, etc etc, for one or all parties concerned, at certain moments in time. Atman consciousness is aware of these things, it being a much more expanded consciousness than I have (possibly limitless, I don’t know yet )and it informs my normal ‘lower’ consciousness of this. It is up to my lower consciousness to hear the echo and enact what atman consciousness urges. So atman consciousness has great knowledge and will but no agency to carry out that knowledge if my lower consciousness doesn’t hear and act. My lower consciousness has agency. This is like alignment with the Dao or with God, not my will but my Higher Will, and my enactment of same.

You say “You already are, and always have been free,” but are you already and always have been holy and pure as well? or is it just free? You ask me what would I prefer, “An agitated mind or a peaceful mind? A mind filled with anger and hatred or a mind filled with joy and love?”, as though I can make this choice, and now you ask me why crave for the personality’s likes and dislikes and tell me to be free of the personalities whims. Why? I responded earlier that I didn’t think making choices based on the preferences of the personality was a good idea anyway, that it was like letting a toddler decide what to put in the shopping trolley. Stirling did something similar, he said nonduality would ideally be taught with an eye toward generating compassion for other beings, to soften the cherishing of the "self". This is the best way to avoid becoming an enlightened asshole, as though this was a choice, though he was very clear earlier that the “whole idea that you are a person who is in charge of your destiny, or that which practice you choose is in your hands, is nonsense. Projecting yourself or objects into the future and thinking what you imagine might REALLY happen, or imagining that something that happened to you in the past has any absolute reality is nonsense.” Confusing.

Could you post some TTC verses that you think capture this?

The danger of following the preferences of personality is that very often the most important things we have to do to progress are not what we would prefer. Like shadow work, going through the deepest darkest places of anxiety and anger because there is light on the other side. Like sitting with emotional pain until it is healed. Like letting go of what feels most desirable. Allowing personality to make choices is like letting a toddler decide what to put in the shopping trolley.

“That which knows this state, like all others,” as just one more state, is indeed the Atman, but would the Atman raise the status of this one state above all other states by desiring to experience this one state above all others? I think to extricate oneself from the delusion of anandamaya kosha the Vijnanamaya Kosha (Wisdom or Awareness Body) needs to first be developed, otherwise one cannot see where ego and anandamaya kosha start and end. Without wisdom one will see only anandamaya kosha and will want only anandamaya kosha, with some wisdom one will notice the presence of ego and try to destroy ego leaving only anandamaya kosha. I think the real work is to overcome the seduction of anandamaya kosha experience and seek to separate consciousness from anandamaya kosha (along with all other koshas).

I have multiple reactions, none of which are definitive, which makes it effective as an art piece at least