Bindi

Direct insight and knowledge of all causation are basically Buddhist concepts as far as I can tell, and Buddhist conceptions of ultimate truth are not the same as alchemical conceptions of ultimate truth IMO. There is a Chinese word for ‘seeing’, someone told me it once on this site but I can’t remember it, I’ll try and find it. One thing I notice about the Yi Jing is that it presents opposites in a normal mental way, like ‘water and fire’, but the reality of the opposites in the subtle body is not what the normal mind would think. Using a text which employs normal reasoning will inevitably lead to error if it is attributed to the subtle body. Yes the Yi Jing has a comforting sort of mathematicalness to it, but how far that relates to the subtle body system is questionable to say the least. I think this is what I was perceiving as the Yang style of neidan, I see now it must be the influence of the Yi Jing.

One of the things I saw at one time was a drop of something that looked like mercury shoot from below my navel up to my diaphragm where it hit a barrier, then shoot down to my perineum and then shoot back up to above my navel where it stayed. How does mercury which is found in chemistry relate to the subtle body? I guess that exact malleability of mercury and the exact colour etc captures the exact nature of this thing in the subtle body. Maybe this is the filtering through the subconscious mind, so things which would be found in a chemistry lab simply are the best images for things in the subtle body. One possibility is that these images are streamed through a holistic visual ‘right brain’ first and then into the linear and verbal ‘left brain’, maybe we can’t divorce ourselves from the mechanics of our brain, and everything filters through the physical set up of the brain. So my mercury becomes a symbol of the subtle body, but it’s not incorrect because of this. I read bits of it that tend to make more sense regarding the subtle body over time as my own subtle body and greater understanding develops. For example a text of circa 900 puts it, "natural cyclically transformed elixir is formed when flowing mercury, embracing [lead], becomes pregnant.… I see resonances here. The Chinese external alchemists were also very obsessed with mud, and mud is exactly what blocks the yin channel which should be flowing water. They were obsessed with cooking things in cauldrons, and a cauldron is exactly what a structure in the ldt appears as, because it is the best image for the actual reality? It makes my head spin thinking about it

This is Jerry Alan Johnson’s take on visions in particular, though he is coming from a TCM perspective: For me it’s what my mother sees in her visions that has given me most of my overall perspective. Whether what she sees comes through the Hun or from her connection to the Dao or Wuji is the issue. I have thought about this issue quite a lot, it certainly makes a difference, and some of my thoughts are written below: 1. She also sees what’s going on in the body physically, and has correctly diagnosed a physical problem or followed someone being healed physically via ‘seeing’ which has been matched with what’s going on in real time in the real physical world. 2. I believe she sees the structure of the subtle body in the same matter of fact way, as it is, not as an imposed belief system. There are many resonances with alchemy and daoism though, which can mean one of two things. A) She is repeating what she learnt in circa 300 CE, or B ) Daoism and parts of alchemy have actually got it right and reported what the subtle body actually looks like to the human mind. There might be a lot of neidan based on the Yi Jing, for instance Return means coming back. In the body of the hexagram one yang moves below a group of yins ䷗; this hexagram represents the return of yang. The way to do it involves working in sequence, restoring it gradually; one cannot restore it immediately, or even if one does restore it immediately it cannot be stabilized. This path is not difficult to know, but it is difficult to practice….. going from a single yang ䷗, until six yangs ䷀ are pure and complete. -- Liu Yiming, The Taoist I Ching, hexagram #24 Return. This is very different (as we have more or less established previously) with its pure Yang ideal than the Yin and Yang are equal and together birth something kind of perspective, that was around in 300 AD and is in texts like the External Yellow Court (undetermined date). It still comes down to a belief that the Yi Jing/Neidan is closer to the truth than the External Yellow Court text which has a very different perspective on things. It is what you and your teachers believe no doubt, but your belief doesn’t make it so, from my perspective it was someone’s limited human mind and their inevitable biased human error that made this association and consequent conclusions. The error to me is thinking that the Yi Jing was actually an alchemical text and not a divination tool, which then restricts the alchemical interpretater to align with the Yi Jing text, creating any number of discrepancies between the reality of the subtle body and the subtle body as interpreted through the filter of a divination text. You think the Yi Jing is inspired, Christians think the bible is inspired, muslims think the Koran is inspired, Buddhists think the Pali Canon is inspired, their beliefs don’t make it so. Equally these ‘inspired’ texts aren’t talking about the same thing, they don’t represent different interpretations of the one direct insight IMO at least. edit to add: Could it be that the Visions that JAJ refers to are a ‘ Chinese’ perspective retained in TCM and the direct insight you and your teachers refer to are a more Buddhist perspective? You have said previously your teachers are influenced by Buddhism.

Hi Michael, I’m specifically thinking of Chinese external alchemy which is putting physical substances into actual crucibles and heating them on a real stove, along with various ritual things to say or do, plus ritual and preordained time frames for when to do these things. I have long considered the possibility that inner alchemy actually came first via a realised Chinese ‘master’, around 300 CE or so, and images from his/her inner alchemy were at some point misunderstood by students of this putative master (once or twice removed) to be images of external events. When others came along who preferred to follow an inner truth, then these somewhat garbled external rituals were again re-set, this time back to internal.

Absolutely. Agreed, one can bring in tree energy (for instance) which might make certain things happen quicker, but isn’t fundamentally necessary.

True, I remembered it was Jing Qi a little while ago but left my post as it was. Does this have anything to do with a cauldron being filled with water and a fire underneath it? Does excess yin qi mean excess in the environment, or you need excess yin qi in your system at a certain point? Is environmental Yin Qi like tree energy, ground energy etc? Yes, I’m only after the historical overview in this case.

Yin Qi was associated with semen and menstrual blood in a previous thread somewhere, on a deeper level Yin Qi was the energy that went into making semen and menstrual blood I seem to recall, I’m just curious about what you think comes from external sources that might affect this energy. I have no idea so I was just guessing really and a lot of people seem to think it revolves around semen and menstrual blood. I am just starting to get a handle on my belief system, it seems to fall somewhere between external alchemy and neidan in time, so what you say above has very little relation to my understanding. For me there is a yin qi component in every dantian, as highly valued as the yang qi component in every dantian, and it has nothing at all to do with semen or menstrual blood even in the lower dantian. Still, I’d like to hear more about what Neidanists believe about Yin Qi if anyone would be willing to tell me. Even better I’d like to talk to someone who recognises the terms I have come across, like Mother Father King Queen left right, but there don’t seem to be any of those, so neidanists are my next best thing. I’m interested in the history, not in learning neidan, though I thought Pregadio was generally respected in the neidan field. God knows I could be wrong of course, I reserve the right to be wrong at least once a day

Are you equating yin qi with physical matter maybe? I really have no idea why else you would be so sure of this, and it probably goes without saying that I perceive yin qi as a subtle energy that can only be developed via subtle energy methods. The text is very good IMO for an historical appreciation of the roots of internal alchemy and neidan, it remains to discover whether progress in ideas led to a greater understanding of the nature of Yin and Yang qi or a slow crumbling of what was once complete.

Is this true though, that (excess) Yin Qi needs to be drawn from the environment? Why is that a given?

Yin/Queen/Mother/West/Moon/Mount Penglai and Yang/King/Father/East/Sun/Mount Kunlun as the right eye and left eye respectively. Yin and Yang are the mother and father of “a child that lives between the eyes.” This is from an essay by Pregadio on “Early Daoist meditation and the origins of Inner Alchemy”. A very interesting essay to me, the above is pre-neidan, though not really pre-alchemy as a child is produced from the union of Yin and Yang. This is the thought stream I most relate to, which incidentally seems more akin to the concepts of ida and pingala and the central channel in Yoga and Lalana and Rasana and the central channel in Tibetan Buddhism. http://fabriziopregadio.com/files/PREGADIO_Early_Daoist_Meditation.pdf

I fully agree with 2 and 3 characterised as water/emotion and air/mind, but how can someone move to ‘higher’ mind by choice, considering ‘higher’ mind is what is sought, not generally what is already available?

Show me an actual immortal and I’ll like his/her method most

Chapter 42 of the Laozi says that “everything is embedded in yin and embraces yang; through chong qi [vital energy] it reaches he [harmony].” It is through yinyang’s function as qi and the interaction between them that everything comes into existence. Zhuangzi also speaks about the “qi of yin and yang”: “When the qi of yin and yang are not in harmony, and cold and heat come in untimely ways, all things will be harmed.” (Zhuangzi ch. 31) On the other hand, “when the two have successful intercourse and achieve harmony, all things will be produced.” (Zhuangzi ch. 21) https://iep.utm.edu/yinyang/ When the energy of yin and the energy of yang have successful ‘intercourse’ (a term that wouldn’t be thrown around lightly), and harmony is achieved, “all things will be produced”. I could only guess at what would be produced.

Yin in its highest form is freezing while yang in its highest form is boiling. The chilliness comes from heaven while the warmness comes from the earth. The interaction of these two establishes he (harmony), so it gives birth to things. Perhaps this is the law of everything yet there is no form being seen” (Zhuangzi, Chapter 21). In none of these conceptions of yinyang is there a valuational hierarchy, as if yin could be abstracted from yang (or vice versa), regarded as superior or considered metaphysically separated and distinct. Instead, yinyang is emblematic of valuational equality rooted in the unified, dynamic, and harmonized structure of the cosmos. https://iep.utm.edu/yinyang/ In alchemy there is an ‘ultimate yin’ (and I would presume an ultimate yang), perhaps equivalent to Zhuangzi’s freezing highest yin and boiling highest yang. From the external yellow court: “Concealed within the Ultimate Yin, my body is made complete.” (Fu Yu Tai Yin Cheng Wu Xing). If Yin can be pictured as a black line in the shape of a circle, and yang can be pictured as a white line in the shape of a square, then yin in its highest form or extreme yin or ultimate yin might be pictured as a black line in the shape of a square, and vice versa for the highest form or extreme or ultimate yang, a white line in the shape of a circle. And this could be considered to be extracting true yin and true yang. And Yin in its highest form or true yin and Yang in its highest form or true yang establishes he (harmony). And true yin and true yang are still valuationally equal. He (harmony) not De (virtue, inherent character; inner power; integrity).

If the subtle energy system was constructed in this way then this system could work perfectly well, but wishful thinking doesn’t make it so.

From your link, breath flowing evenly through the two nostrils and a high degree of awareness of body and mind are prerequisites to sushumna being ‘applied’.

Being that I believe consciousness needs to first be brought from the lower dantian upwards until it reaches the eyes, I very much agree with what you say above. What would be the use of concentrating on a point far along in the journey when the earlier places haven’t first been attended to. IMO it would make for a very lopsided result, and as such not useful.

I would like to engage with the question, “what is stored in the ltd”. From my experience. First, it’s nature is water, this is fundamental. I would go so far as to say, if you’re not describing it as water, you’re not describing the Jing that is converted into qi that is converted into Shen, you’re describing something else, maybe something more on a physical level. Good questions to ask would be what does water symbolise on a metaphysical level? Another question I’d ask, and I’m asking myself right now, is alchemical symbolism a cultural notion or a fundamental reality of the subtle body?

“To be a master of metaphor is a sign of genius.” ~ Aristotle

@Apech, If you achieve some external order in which to do ‘spiritual’ things, would you first seek order or chaos within?

Odds are this or something similar is the end result, but I don’t think it’s advised until the earlier issues (chaos and order) are authentically resolved. This is one of my issues with Christianity today, it’s too hard to love when the internals are still messed up.

Entering into a dark room that was in chaos (it looked like it had been ransacked with furniture and papers strewn everywhere), I tried to straighten up a knocked over armchair but found it was too heavy to budge, so instead I climbed onto the upended armchair and just sat, facing a double door. From the corner of my eye I could see small shadowy figures huddling in groups amidst the chaos, whispering to each other and giggling. In time, it was three days I recall, the door opened, and curious, I went through, where I saw an army standing to attention in two perfect rows facing each other, impeccably dressed in white officers clothes (but with black details, black buttons, black braid on their white caps, black shoes). I backed into a wall in this room and flattened myself against it as far as I could to get out of their way, and I watched as they swivelled their heads in unison from where they had been looking (up and outwards) towards the double door now that the doors were open. Then, again as one, they started to move through the doorway into the dark and chaotic room, where they each paired up with one of the shadowy figures from the dark room at a piece of furniture that was overturned. In unison the officers said, each to their own shadowy person, “When I say lift, you lift” so each shadow person bent down and put their hands ready underneath their piece of furniture and waited for the signal, and when each paired officer said “Lift” (again in unison), they lifted in unison, and in a moment everything was upright and in order.

Bringing order to chaos is half of freedom, bringing warmth and compassion to order would be the other half. The freedom would be freedom from investing consciousness in chaos or order, and then consciousness can be invested in the next thing along. I don’t know what that is though.

If we can agree that these energies need to be brought up ( For example from an earlier post “It will pass through the Six Mansions and be stored in You and Mao” “You and Mao are used here as names for the left and right eyes, and indicate that the two spirits of the kidneys (Royal Father and Royal Mother) gather and meet there”) then it sounds like this ‘Neidan step’ must precede the “spirits of the kidneys” step, ie., the two spirits of the gonads need to be brought up to the kidneys and pass through a few other places until these same ‘spirits’ enter the left and right eyes. This makes sense to me at any rate, though the neidan proof seems more associated with the physical than is necessary when developing subtle energies.

“This is the main secret of all traditions and practices: Tao is the balance of Yin and Yang.” Thus spake the Russians https://ancientdao.net/foundation/ancient-method/