Bindi

I cannot fathom how stopping menstruation would a) be possible without starvation or menopause, or b.) would indicate spiritual progress. It’s not like menstruation is associated with desire or lack of it in any way. To me at least, stopping menstruation is not equivalent to semen retention, and seems more like a false association born from lack of physiological knowledge and external equivalence. Also, I’m a woman, yet found I was drawn to starting from my lower dantian.

For me yin and yang are best envisioned as Ida and Pingala Nadis. True Yin and True Yang IME swap certain specific ‘natural’ qualities, so that what we might think of as a Yang quality is actually True Yin, and vice versa. As far as I can tell, it is Ida Nadi that is most blocked in humanity nowadays, maybe it has been for a long time - in the DDJ it states “Know the white, keep to the black”. Know the ‘masculine’ energies but keep to the “feminine” energies. I have found that 99% of what I needed to do was in the Ida channel, the Pingala channel was hardly any work, and always very brief. When energy is flowing freely in both, they couple naturally.

I’d describe it exactly like that, at a certain point we have to get out of the way and let the black and the white do their thing.

I don’t think so. The central channel seems a better candidate for beyond polarity to me. But aren’t ‘illusory’ and ‘veiling’ something to go beyond as they are limiting and restrict consciousness? On the internal subtle level Ida Nadi isn’t a negative thing, perfect flow through and balance between Ida and Pingala is required. Ida isn’t ultimately a limiting concept. My own understanding of ‘the Black’ is as the active force, capable of subtle action, with ‘the White’ as the words or intention directing the action. Something like the brains and the brawn, working together. Each are distinct, but take one out of the picture and nothing can happen, there is only chaos and misaligned intention.

There seem to be two particularly strong theories. The first is that the images were darkened to illustrate a text from the Song of Songs: "I am black but beautiful." [Negra sum sed formosa] In support of this theory, note that many of the black Madonnas exist in France, and date from around the time of the crusades, when Bernard of Clairvaux wrote numerous commentaries on the Canticles, comparing the soul to the bride, as well as many on Our Lady. He was also known to have visited several shrines of the Black Madonna, for example: Chatillon and Affligem. In the Gothic period texts explicitly interpreted the Bride in Canticles as referring especially to Mary. Once artistic precedent had been set, subsequent black Madonnas may be explained by artistic convention rather than theological motivation. Based on historical correlations, Ean Begg speculates that the genre developed from an esoteric popular religion common among the Templars and Cathars, perhaps as a complement to the impetus from Bernard. The other prominent theory is briefly summarized by Stephen Benko: "The Black Madonna is the ancient earth-goddess converted to Christianity." His argument begins by noting that many goddesses were pictured as black, among them Artemis of Ephesus, Isis, Ceres, and others. Ceres, the Roman goddess of agricultural fertility, is particularly important. Her Greek equivalent, Demeter, derives from Ge-meter or Earth Mother. The best fertile soil is black in color and the blacker it is, the more suited it is for agriculture. https://udayton.edu/imri/mary/b/black-madonnas-origin-history-controversy.php

I wonder if you did tune into the emotional stuff for a few minutes, if you made a point of it in a few moments of quiet time, whether your rude and unhelpful dreams might be appeased and do an about face to support that endeavour. Dreams can get very cranky if they’re being ignored, but are very quick to be satisfied if you start working with them instead of against them.

I think your dreams are saying the thing you consider to be ‘inferior’ is actually beautiful and valuable, and I imagine that thing is most likely to be your female aspect given the context of your dream. Black, which is being equated with good in your dreams, is a Daoist symbol for Yin/female. I wonder if you are being presented with your female side in waking life through the circumstances around you, and if you are vehemently rejecting that aspect when it comes up.

This Western notion that the Father/light is good and that darkness is bad is regrettable and unhelpful to the psyche and leads to all sorts of imbalance. Assuming there is a subtle reality (and I believe there is) how can anyone discover it with an open mind if they are biased from the start? And how can the two polarities start working together if one side isn’t even acknowledged let alone nurtured? Yoga acknowledges these two as ida and pingala nadi’s, this is a saner and sound basis from which to start IMO. But it is equally a mistake to imagine that they are beyond polarity, though I believe they are capable of union. People in the Western theology system can find balance still, many orders have a devotion to Mary, and there is the curious case of the black Madonna, a perfect symbol for the female/dark side of duality. And the words at the bottom - Nigra sum sed formosa, meaning "I am black but beautiful" (from the Song of Songs, 1:5)

Damo Mitchell on feelings, emotions and mood. Key takeaways for me are that in his opinion emotional work is required before starting any meditation practice, and that meditation is not emotional work. Getting this right is the difference between actualising emotional detachment which entails suppressing emotions, and learning to allow emotions to flow but not attaching to them.

Not even entering into the argument of whether this view is correct or not, it is the traditional Daoist perspective. Komjathy states this clearly in Daoism, a guide for the perplexed, where he writes, "a transcendent spirit is created [his italics], not given. From a traditional Daoist perspective, immortality is not an ontological given; it is actualised through Daoist training (p. 128). As it so happens I do agree with your (and traditional Daoism’s) perspective.

An independent Yin Shen/subtle body? An unusual position, up till now I’ve only heard of the aim to generate a Yang Shen. I don’t know Bill Bodri at all, but I think his idea (that you posted previously) that no one actually knows what works so do everything is pretty funny, though quite possibly true.

I am reading Understanding Chinese Religions and thought this intro to Daoism might shed some light on the question: Two points I find to be overwhelmingly important are immortality as the goal of Daoism, and that initially there was opposition to the teaching of Buddhism. This changed over time, but my personal interest is in the nature of Daoism before it was influenced by Buddhism.

You’re right of course, I’m not homophobic. I was responding to Cheya’s claim that my ‘vaccine makes you gay’ stories were made up. They weren’t. I linked to the articles that carried these stories to prove I hadn’t made them up. No tantrum, no snarkiness, merely proof I hadn’t made them up. You have repeatedly referred to my posting links to homophobic sites, even in this current post (see bolded and underlined quote below). This suggests to me that it does matter to you whether the sites are homophobic or not. The sites I linked to were the very opposite of homophobic. I’m glad you’ve come to this conclusion. Being aware of data manipulation in one article can arm you against falling for it in another. I was accused of making up vaccines make you gay stories. How else might I have proven I didn’t make them up? Would I have been believed me if I had merely stated I hadn’t made them up? Saying I didn’t make them up doesn’t sound like a strong defence to me, much stronger to post proof that I didn’t make them up. Are the links to an LGBTI site homophobic? Is the LGBTI site itself homophobic because they reported that some people were saying the vaccine makes people gay? Cheya wrote that we will know if the article was correct or not in 6 months time (if/when everyone who had been vaccinated started dying from AIDS). This was her best way of evaluating this article. Asking if any of you knew how to interpret the actual data seemed like a reasonable response at the time, instead of waiting the 6 months to prove this author right or wrong. Because you, Cheya and Taomeow already believed that the vaccine causes an acquired immune deficiency disorder, you were all blinded to the level of misinformation you were being fed. This does get frustrating for me at times, and I might not always say things in the kindest way, but I really am tired of combatting misinformation. Not combatting it doesn’t feel like an option when I see what I find to be glaringly obvious misinformation being posted. This is why I suggested a few months back that Cheya post in the new current events section, because then I wouldn’t have to see every new piece of misinformation, and I wouldn’t feel compelled to counter it. NB., full disclosure, I did study statistics at university level, where we were trained in how to conduct a scientific experiment, how to use statistics properly, as well as how to spot misuse of statistics. I passed all my stats units with distinctions.

Expanding on this just a little, I equated Cheya’s absolute nonsense article which claimed that taking the vaccine would give you AIDS and cause you to die within maybe six months (erroneously based on waning efficiency of the vaccine over 6 months), with the idea that the vaccine would turn you gay. Cheya made some comment about my ‘made up vaccines make you gay stories’, so I posted the links to the LGBTI site which carried and ridiculed two of the claims, plus a third news link also ridiculing the claim. I was then banned by Cheya from any further posting in her thread, and you have consistently assumed that the sites were homophobic, even though I already posted earlier in this thread that they were pro-gay sites. I think you should read the links, you will probably enjoy them. When Steve posted a comment on Cheya’s rubbish article he stated that there was no difference between saying the vaccine gives you AIDS and that the vaccine makes you gay. Cheya’s article really was that bad. I was edited on at least three other occasions because Cheya didn’t like my comments. I recall one was me saying that if she checked the facts before posting there wouldn’t be such overwhelming amounts of misinformation being posted, and that as it was it was just lazy conspiracy cut and pasting. More recently I questioned whether any of you actually understood how to interpret data, after Cheya posted this particular vaccines gives you AIDS article was worth reading, and you and Taomeow ‘liked’ it. My question was deemed offensive and edited by Cheya, but I’ve been thinking about it, and I’ve come to the conclusion that you, Cheya and Taomeow really don’t know how to analyse and interpret data, because a lot of what has been posted by Cheya and liked by you and Taomeow was glaringly inaccurate manipulation of data. I can’t remember my further edited comments or hidden posts at this point.

If COVID posting continues in PPD’s I would like moderators to make a decision on whether Cheya has the right to ban me from contributing to any further COVID discussion in her PPD.

I’m all for #2, and limiting all new COVID conversations to the current events section, I’d personally like to see all previous COVID threads shifted to that section and all hidden posts restored, but that might be hoping for too much. I’ve well and truly had enough of COVID misinformation being repeatedly presented on the all activity feed. I also think this would set a good precedent for the next current affairs conflict, because there will be one won’t there?

If you’d actually followed the links to the homophobic content, you would have found that in all three cases they were linked to articles scoffing at and ridiculing these exact homophobic views, two were even from an LBGTI site. Or you could do what everyone else does in all other areas, and report the offending post to the moderators, who will hopefully examine the issue thoroughly, perhaps discuss it with the offender to determine what is actually going on, and give an evaluated response, not a knee jerk reaction.

Regarding the value of cultivating Yin and Yang, and the concept of ‘Yin Shen’ being complementary to Yang Shen instead of something to be shunned, this paragraph from the External Yellow Court may shed some light: ”When the two spirits [Yin and Yang, NT] match and fit, they will produce Yu Ying, the Jade Glory. From above it receives the primordial breath energy that extends life. It scouts and protects the seven orifices and banishes misfortunes. It makes the sun and the moon present and expands Yin and Yang. Then it hides in the T’ai Yin, the Extreme Yin and forms a body. ~ translated by Jane Huang Two spirits together acquire the transformation of the Jade Hero. From above the Heavenly Qi is received, granting increased life. The sun and moon are arranged to make known the Yin and Yang. The ruler of the Five Viscera are the kidneys, essential for the essence. Concealed within the Ultimate Yin, my body is made complete. ~ translated by Stuart Alve Olsen Yin and Yang, matched and fitted together, produce the ‘green spirit’ and primordial breath or heavenly Qi (ie., Shen) will be received. This ‘green spirit’ then hides in or is concealed within extreme or ultimate Yin to create an immortal body. What is ultimate Yin if not True Yin? And none of this can happen if yin and yang aren’t matched and fitted together in the first place. This is not a method that aims to reduce yin and increase yang on any level.

Different systems start in different places, like kundalini focusing on the root chakra, zen on head consciousness, and non-dualism on changing mental attitude, while neidan starts with the lower dantian. Apart from anything else this starting point seems to direct the end result, IMO it’s a primary difference that makes all the difference in the world as to the ultimate value of what can be achieved. @anshino23, how the body responds to alchemy on a scientific level is a great subject to be exploring, I’ve come across a lot of personal evidence that chakras are related to the glands, and improving chakra/gland function seems likely to be a key area for cultivating longevity.

In alchemy ‘alchemical water’ fills the cauldron in the ldt and ‘alchemical water’ has to rise to the mdt, wouldn’t this alchemical water actually be jing, found only on the subtle level?

I wonder if ‘bliss’ is associated with the increased activity in the left frontal lobe that comes from meditation according to various studies - “Several studies of those who meditate regularly showed increased activity in the left frontal lobe along with its relation to the limbic system, signifying increases in positive emotions and higher levels of happiness, focus and higher thought. Other studies have documented increases in serotonin, dopamine, melatonin and endorphins, in the limbic systems of meditating test subjects.” Increased activity in the opposite lobe, the right frontal, promotes negative emotions, is it possible that mediators have chanced upon a method to increase positive emotions and achieve ‘bliss’ by manipulating brain activity? If so, the issue for me would be what about the valuable attributes that might be hidden in the right frontal lobe that remain untapped and unutilised?

Addressing this threads title, ‘What is the place of emotions in spirituality’, it seems to me that the ‘alchemical body’ is actually the higher expression of emotions - IMO when emotions can flow unhampered the alchemical body is the natural result, and it seems substantial in the way that emotions may be considered to have substance, The ability to move the alchemical body or direct it is a different operation which I would equate with the higher expression of thoughts.

The Buddha seems to me to have been answering the problem of suffering, but he doesn’t seem to have gotten into energetics at all, though some later Buddhists clearly have. Maybe the original Daoist Alchemist was solving a different issue, ie., the establishment and development of an alchemical subtle body. Hmmm, I find dantians as relevant as Yin and Yang, I also disagree we are already immortals in the alchemical sense, perhaps we are in a reincarnation sense but my best guess would be we reincarnate in order to establish an alchemical body that simply doesn’t exist until it is given the right conditions to develop.

Did you eventually start sorting your emotional issues via mediation? Would you have separated the two if there had been a teacher offering this option? It is always possible that Westerners are just a more screwed up bunch than the originators of meditation as path, and that we need to include this extra step, perhaps it’s just not common knowledge yet. I find it very reassuring that Damo is putting this out there, though I suspect it might take a while before this idea gains much traction in the West.

Interesting teaching Facing your fear IMO is a sound start. Our ‘WILL’ is an interesting topic, but if it is developed before emotions have been resolved, then the whole picture becomes very muddy and I believe can lead to very bad consequences along the lines of murderous dictators and control freaks etc.