Bindi

Yes, yes, yes and yes. I agree Vipassana is similar, but I feel Vipassana’s emphasis on the entire body distracts from what I believe the Daoist’s have gotten right, ie the dantians. I have found certain aspects of emotional work and dantian development go hand in hand. I haven’t looked into his method.

Yes I agree, this is the process. It’s as if an emotion once felt, remains attached to us though in a split off way, and the only way to move on from it is to process it in the only way emotions are processed, ie., by feeling it. I’ve always done it by following the feelings that my dreams brought up, I’d actively re-feel the feeling in the dream after processing the mental framework, in the end I’ve reprocessed all the unfelt feelings, which not surprisingly were all the emotions it was hard to feel. Following my dreams also allowed a higher or deeper guiding principle to determine what needed to be felt at any time, so I consider it to be a safe method. For me the emotional system is one aspect, beyond it there is a the mental system and beyond both of these the ‘spiritual’ system. Personally I have shifted from actively working on my emotional system to actively working on my mental system. I think it’s such a universal truth it’s beyond just those who have gone through recovery. It’s good though that emotional work is also understood to be the basis of recovery.

@Yueya, I came across these paragraphs yesterday, I thought they might resonate with you: Another Daoist practice that has made its way into modern Qigong is inner observation or neiguan, the active, conscious introspection of one’s body and mind. As documented in texts since the Tang dynasty, and in particular in the Scripture of Inner Observation (Neiguan jing; see Kohn 1989), practitioners are guided to turn their perception inside and realize the realities of body energies and consciousness movements within. Soon they begin to understand how they function and react both physically and psychologically. With prolonged practice, they become aware of the subtler energies of life and see themselves increasingly in terms of Qi-patterns than ego-centered actions. As the Scripture of Inner Observation says, adepts come to see the body as part of Heaven and Earth, raised through yang and nourished by yin, helped and guarded by the spirit and material souls, organized in accordance with the five phases and the six musical tones, radiating with the power of the seven stars and the eight luminaries. They learn that beyond their tangible Qi, they consist to a large extend of spirit (shen), the primordial, formless, and ever-changing force, which in connection with the physical body causes human beings to be alive. Manifested in the human mind, where it is often distorted to serve egoistic and one-sided needs, spirit is brought back to a state of rest as the mind is concentrated and relaxed. Adepts come to see that just as the Dao pervades the universe in utmost perfection, so spirit working through their mind can govern their life perfectly—that is, as long as it is observed and cultivated and not wasted on sensual amusements and the exertions of the senses. From confusion and defilement, adepts recover the primordial state. Doing so, they come to realize the impermanent nature of the ego-based vision of self and body and replace this identity with one that consists of an assemblance of energy, essence, and spirit. They realize in their own lives the dictum of Zhuangzi that “human life is a coming-together of Qi. If it comes together there is life. If it scatters there is death” (Watson 1968, 235). Human life is only one part of the continuous natural transformations of Qi; it is merely borrowed from heaven and earth but since it resembles them closely in its structuring and undergoes the same transformations as all creation, it can be made just as perfect, just as flowing, just as eternal. Realizing this inherent nature of life and themselves, adepts see that there is no true master of body and mind and acknowledge how little conscious control they have over life’s transformations. Increasingly able to let life and the body go on changing as they please, they can forget themselves and dissolve into the higher patterns of the Dao. This Dao, in the Daoist context, however, is not just a flow of energies, but populated by gods, spirits, and other supernatural entities. As the practitioner becomes more attuned to his life and body as the universe, he or she also comes to actively perceive the gods and spirits as inhabitants of the human body. The body and thus the self becomes increasingly a microcosmic replica of the starry heavens above, full of palaces and chambers, towers and terraces, gods and immortals. The deities who reside in the paradises of the otherworld are as much at home in the adept’s body, and again—as through the ingestion of the five sprouts—the adept comes to cosmicize his or her self, expanding identity into a larger sphere. From Livia Kohn Here

I have come to the conclusion that if I could break the word associations of Yin-female and Yang-male I would have no problem with any of this, unfortunately I can’t break those word chains, and I don’t think I’d ever even want to. Oh well. I think I’m better off working with the true yin/true yang model, far more productive and wholesome for me. In this model, true Yang without true Yin would be as unbalanced as a cart with one wheel.

I read numerous translations of the first line of chapter ten which refers directly to the Po soul, and I found the translation changes the entire perspective. You quoted “Can you govern the Po, embrace the union and never separate from this way?” Alternatively I found: "Unite physically and mentally to embrace One.(David H.Li) When the intelligent and animal souls are held together in one embrace, they can be kept from separating. (Legge) Can you unify hun and p'o into one and not let them be divided? (Chang Chung-Yuan) In bringing your spiritual (ying) and bodily (p'o) souls to embrace the One (Ellen Marie Chen) These translations all remind me of the quote in the external yellow court which I posted earlier, “My spirits, Hun and Po, dwell within the centre.” Wo Shen Hun Po Zai Zhong Yang …If people were able to constantly have clarity and tranquility, they would then understand that all of the Heaven [the Hun] and Earth [the Po] return to the Tao. (p. 296-297 of Stuart Alve Olson’s external yellow court). There is no reference to governing the Po or separating out the Yang from the Yin, there is only a reference to bringing the Po and Hun souls together and keeping them from separating.

Yes this seems to be exactly the case. I guess my next question would be is anything lost or blurred or put out of balance in the progression from ‘philosophical’ Yin/Yang as symbol of opposing/harmonising to ‘Yang is superior/Yin is not desirable?

Except I wasn’t saying he was speaking about the Po, I was referring to all those Yang words as not necessarily the Way according to Laozi (see my previous post). He seems to favour words like drifting, aimless, not having goals, which I perceive as a very Yin Way.

Definite, tangible, clear, discernment, logical clarity and a sharp sword - bright, sharp, and with a purpose for sure, but not necessarily the Way according to Laozi… I alone drift about,like someone without a home.I am like an idiot, my mind is so empty.Other people are bright;I alone am dark.Other people are sharper;I alone am dull.Other people have a purpose;I alone don't know.I drift like a wave on the ocean,I blow as aimless as the wind.I am different from ordinary people.I drink from the Great Mother's breasts. - ch. 20 These reactive emotions, the ones that were produced before you ever heard of daoism or neidan or cultivation, continue to exist as mud obstructing the Yin channels. The only way to wash away mud is with water, and water is of course Yin. This is on a psychospiritual level, it’s not precise and definite and tangible, really it’s the exact opposite, it requires submission to the Po soul, and respect for the reactive emotions that have been previously called into existence. I disagree that emotions cease to be at the level of the Original Spirit. Rather, at this level, the Po soul (and the Hun soul) are “nourished by the Great Mother”, we will “drink from her breasts”.

The characterisation male - female is an early one in an individual’s journey, and remains a fundamental aspect as other descriptors emerge. Thus left - female and right - male help orient us in an otherwise amorphous landscape, refer to water and I know you’re talking about the left female emotional channel, refer to fire and I know you’re talking about the right male mental channel. Later on, as you progress, alchemical symbols are added, colour and form, but these aren’t free floating, simply black or white or linear or chaotic, they remain attached and you just get two longer strings, male/white/mental/linear/order and female/black/emotional/round/random. Chopping up these strings you can end up with statements that don’t make sense, like Yin/Po/order/reason, but because you have disattached them they can be presented as true, and because there’s no link to any given order, there’s no way to judge otherwise. Without being absolutely clear on these chains, it would be impossible to know if by True Yang you are referring to just the left channel, or the channel beyond Yin and Yang which would be better named as the Central channel, or pure Spirit as opposed to Earth. Loosen the ties too much and you are left with something meaningless, and imbalance can creep in, you can make a case for pure yang and no yin as the ultimate aim, all straight edges and no round, all white and no black, but very little fundamental truth. These designations are not random, and shouldn’t be assigned just any value one feels like, they are psychologically and spiritually meaningful, and the same designations are potentially accessible by any individual from any background if they venture within. If this wasn’t so, if there wasn’t an underlying reality to everything referred to in alchemy, then you’re just playing a game of no real consequence. I have noticed this fascination with detailing the yin and the yang aspect of everything under the sun, but I have never seen the need for it in alchemy. Logical clarity and discernment are behind racism and racially motivated murder? I don’t understand. When I look up De I read it is “rooted in the nature of the Dao” in relation to the Tao te Ching, yet you use it as the original Virtue of the Po. I don’t know what to do with this discrepancy. Yes, agreed to an extent, identification with the Hun and Po separates us from identifying with our Original Spirit. The attitude towards emotions is a great example of patriarchal thinking. Emotions are bad, investment in emotions is bad, emotions are unspiritual, emotions are lesser, emotions are illusory, emotions are to be ruled by the mind. In a previous post I suggested that the nature of the Po soul was ‘emotion’, which entails grappling with the emotions, engaging with them, resolving them, working with them. In your response the emotions were the negative part of the Po soul, in my perspective they are the nature of the Po soul, and not a bad thing in themselves, certainly not something to be overcome or refuted. “Po]… is the [qi] of the Lesser Yin, and works in him, governing the emotions ([qing] 情). [Po] is connected with the idea of brightening ([bai] 白), for with the emotions the interior (of the personality) is governed.” Where there is a lesser Yin there must somewhere else be a greater Yin, and I have no problem with that, emotions aren’t the ultimate reality, but they do play a very big part on the way to ultimate reality.

Hmm, the only good thing about a Yin soul is Yang… Patriarchal error but undeniably popular.

I agree with this author when he says “[Po]… is the [qi] of the Lesser Yin, and works in him, governing the emotions ([qing] 情). [Po] is connected with the idea of brightening ([bai] 白), for with the emotions the interior (of the personality) is governed.” Clarity, order, discernment and reason sound more Yang to me.

In your tradition do you work with the Po soul? Does it contain anything of value?

I went back to the first stanza “It will pass through the Six Mansions and be stored in You and Mao” and Wu Chengzi’s commentary, he writes “ The spirits of the kidneys brings about abundant essence. The left is the Royal Father, the right is the Royal Mother. These two Qi intertwine and place themselves in the Six Mansions. Above they gather within the eyes. The left is You and the right is Mao.” In the translator’s notes (pg. 286) Olson writes “You and Mao are used here as names for the left and right eyes, and indicate that the two spirits of the kidneys (Royal Father and Royal Mother) gather and meet there.” This sounds a lot like ida and pingala to me, travelling up in a serpentine form and ending in the left and right eye. Is it possible that these channels were known and being referred to under the name Royal Father and Royal Mother? It would require a lot more information and study which I don’t feel capable of, but tentatively it looks to me as if this left/right ida/pingala concept might have transformed over time into back/front Renmai and Dumai concepts. Edit: I am reminded of the sun and moon eyes in the Nei Jing tu, though I don’t see the ‘intertwining’ there.

I’d be interested to hear how emitting electric Qi affects other people and objects.

Another pair of opposites (not really yin and yang but I thought I’d post it here cos they’re still opposites) that I wonder about is ‘You’ and ‘Mao’. In the external yellow court there are two references to You and Mao, first “It will pass through the Six Mansions and be stored in You and Mao”, and second “ The left is You, the right Mao, this is my chamber” (You You Zuo Mao Shi Wu Shi). Reading this it seems to state that You and Mao are right and left, and yet in Wu Chengzi’s commentary Mao and Wu “relate to the Spine Handle and solar plexus of the body” (p.300), and this is repeated in The Illustration of the Lesser Heavenly Circuit of the Cauldron and Stove diagram (Xiang Tian Zhou Ding Lu Tu), where the written explanation of the diagram (p. 269) states that “Zi and Wu are the supporting poles of the spine for Mao on the back and You on the front of the body.” Can anyone explain why You and Mao are referenced as left and right in the external yellow court verse and front and back in other sources? (I tried numerous times to post screen shots of the relevant pages and diagrams but I am unable to due to technical incompetence or the limitations of my iPad.)

I’m looking at this very broadly, and I believe there is a lot of precedence for equating yin and yang with Po and Hun souls. From Wikipedia “The identification of the yin-yang principle with the hun and po souls evidently occurred in the late fourth and early third centuries BCE.” Yes, I agree. Sounds reasonable.

Back on yin and yang and their meaning, I get it that heaven is referred to as yang, and earth as yin, but I think the patriarchal error is to see only heaven as valuable. From the external yellow court: “My spirits, Hun and Po, dwell within the centre.” Wo Shen Hun Po Zai Zhong Yang …If people were able to constantly have clarity and tranquility, they would then understand that all of the Heaven [the Hun] and Earth [the Po] return to the Tao. (p. 296-297 of Stuart Alve Olson’s external yellow court). I propose there was a time when the yang soul and the yin soul were both believed to return to the centre.

Aren’t prenatal Jing qi and Shen part of the process to create the alchemical gold? Is the alchemical gold itself prenatal? Did it always exist, before birth?

Is this ‘Yang relative to Yin and Yang’ a polarised state, or beyond polarity?

Many interesting points, not least being that we who are interested in channels and chakras and knots are the fortunate ones - we just have the knack knack knack! Thanks for the link

Here

In looking up Soto Zen I found It stressed doing meditation without a goal, as everyone is already inherently enlightened. Very similar to neo-advaita, and a perspective which I utterly disagree with. As far as I’m concerned, the part of me that may indeed be ‘inherently enlightened’ is in the real world stunted by emotional and mental issues, internal chaos, and misplaced identification with the ‘lower self’. Just ignoring these things is anathema to me. My subtle energy body is not functioning according to its inherent design, a design which some Daoists have perceived in the past, and which to me is the valuable underlying potential reality.

Your perspective seems to have all the hallmarks of neo-advaita, are you sure you weren’t led to your beliefs by reading other people’s beliefs? “It seems that every other day another self-proclaimed ‘enlightened’ teacher of Neo-Advaita appears on the scene. These Neo-Advaita guru’s have reduced thousands of years of Advaita teachings into the spiritual equivalent of McDonald’s junk food. No longer is it necessary for the spiritual student to engage in self-inquiry or inner work on oneself. Now all that is necessary to ‘realize the Self’ is a constant repetitive denial of one’s own identity and the (pseudo) ‘understanding’ that the ego and all and everything else that happens in the universe (essence and belief systems included) is ‘simply an illusion’. Everything ‘just happens, there is no path, no cause’, so consequently there is absolutely nothing to do.”

How did you come to the conclusion that creation is illusory? What do you mean by “self”? You’ve gained ‘freedom from failure’? Because everything just is as it is?

From another perspective: “If there is alignment with the Dao all dualities are resolved,” but many things have to happen on the subtle energy level before there is alignment with the Dao, not just the belief that you are aligned.