Bindi

I hope you add a bit more to your response

The term cheng-hsing 正 形, which could be translated as "correcting the body," has a specific meaning in the texts concerned with inner cultivation. Since the human organism is imbued with vital energy, I take cheng-hsing to refer to aligning or harmonizing the flow of vital energy within the physical form, (a more literal rendering of hsing). Likewise, the term cheng-hsin 正 心, translated below in a passage found at 16.2b9, means to align the flow of vital energy within the mind [Xin-added]. I like 'correcting' the vital (though subtle) energy flow within the body, and if referring to jing, qi and shen, then synchronising them as they increase and their flow becomes unimpeded. Later in the text 內 藏 以 為 泉 原 It collects inside you, thus acting as a primal spring. 浩 然 和 平 Like a vast lake, it is harmonious and equable seems to denote the unimpeded quality of jing and qi, while 是 謂 雲 氣 This is called cloud-like Qi – 意 行 似 天 Your intent and behavior resemble that of heaven is more likely to refer to shen. Later on there seem to be instructions to contemplate a lot as well. Clear the heart, and contemplate (essence) with a quiet mind perhaps. For example 精 想 思 之 This essence – consider it and contemplate it, 寧 念 治 之 Rather than study ways to regulate it. 思 之 思 之 又 重 思 之 Contemplate it, contemplate it, and again repeatedly contemplate it.

@dawei, you said at some point recently (and seem to have deleted it cos I couldn't find it?) that it seems as if qi precedes jing sometimes in the text. I find this concept is repeated here, "Qi may be converted into jing" as part of the explanation of the term "Yangshen." Do you think this is the same line of thinking as found in the Neiye?

There were multiple references to 'qi ducts' in the post linked below, I chose to take the reference to yin and yang qi ducts as relevant in general to qi ducts.

I don't know where Roth got 'guided' from, I can understand why Linnell translated the line as he did 氣 道 乃 生 With Qi and Dao, then there is life; and I can understand how TT has come up with 'qi ducts,' and right now I tend to think he might be correct. This leaves us with the problem of qi ducts or qi channels that were defined previously in this thread as yin and yang qi ducts, I don't personally have a problem with them as a concept, but I think we'd have to go outside of Daoism to find a reference to them, I propose something along the lines of the female/male Ida and Pingala of Yoga.

Re-reading the whole section, it seems to me that the requirement for jing to dwell in oneself is being aligned and still. Jing coming to stay still seems to me to be the requirement which allows further development. 能 正 能 靜 When you can be properly aligned and can be still– 然 後 能 定 Then, you can be settled. 定 心 在 中 With a settled heart/mind [xin] in your center, ... 可 以 為 精 舍 You are able to become a dwelling for essence [Jing]. 精 也 者 This essence [Jing] – 氣 之 精 者 也 Is essence [Jing] of Qi! 氣 道 乃 生 With Qi and Dao, then there is life; 生 乃 思 With life, then there is contemplation; 思 乃 知 With contemplation, then there is understanding; 知 乃 止 矣 When you reach understanding, then stop! Agreed, and other translations don't have guiding either.

Using the concepts in this thread regarding the Numen, Knowledge reaches its end when the Numen, the Primordial Spirit, the Original Spirit, (I would like to suggest True Yin is also a synonym) re-enters into awareness permanently. I associate this moment with the dawning of true wisdom and "spirit-like understanding" leading to an unbounded understanding of the nature of life, more than 'spiritual awareness,' but maybe the two terms are synonymous? 神 明 之 極 This highest of spirit-like understanding – 照 乎 Is it illuminating? 知 萬 物 You will understand the ten thousand creatures. 遍 知 天 下 They understand the whole world

When qi is guided, vital essence [Jing] is generated.When it is generated, then there is thinking.When there is thinking, then there is knowing.When there is knowing, then you should cease. With this verse I'm going with the idea that jing is naturally depleted throughout a lifetime, ie. pre-cultivation, but things like guiding qi and generating jing are deliberate cultivation. This is why I'm then thinking that the thinking that is generated from jing cultivation is also positive, though there is a definite limit to how far this method can take you. A certain level of knowing and thinking should cease, but also I suspect actively guiding qi and generating jing should cease. Everything that can be done is done, and further progress just unfolds naturally, interference at this point would destroy the natural process which began with deliberate cultivation perhaps. Considering the forms of the heart-mind, Excessive knowing dissipates vitality. I wonder if this could be related to excessive thinking. Knowing and understanding are one thing, perhaps even vital, but even so excessive thinking just depletes yuan shen. I was going with understanding/knowing as the consequence of contemplation, which is a deep/profound type of thinking. 思 乃 知 With contemplation, then there is understanding 思 索 生 知 Deep contemplation creates understanding

To me, it means when the Numen (what I would have referred to as Original Spirit previously) arrives to stay, knowledge and intent is no longer needed to guide jing. I associate the Numen with a Higher order mind, it takes over, and any previous mentation defers to the Numen which has access to metaphysical knowledge.

Some important points from your link: Intuition is explicitly referred to in association with the UDT by JAJ: Of particular interest to Daoist alchemists is the opening of the center of the Upper Dantian, called the "Crystal Room," as this is where psychic perceptions and intuitive awareness take place. Higher communications, experiences of intense bliss, and perceptions that transcend time and space are associated with the Upper Dantian. ...the Upper Dantian is responsible for the fruition of intuitive and psychic perceptions...

A word search on the use of the character 知 knowledge in the Neiye gives me the impression that thoughts are a vital part of the process, and will take you all the way to the Dao. 思 之 思 之 又 重 思 之 Contemplate it, contemplate it, and again repeatedly contemplate it 思 索 生 知 Deep contemplation creates understanding ... 此 謂 和 成 This is called achieving harmony – 精 之 所 舍 That which is the dwelling place of essence 而 知 之 所 生 And that which is the creation of understanding. 神 明 之 極 This highest of spirit-like understanding – 照 乎 Is it illuminating? 知 萬 物 You will understand the ten thousand creatures. 既 知 其 極 Once you understand the extremes, 反 於 道 德 Return to Dao and De. I then wonder if the yin and yang qi channels that are created from a 'seed' are energy channels connecting jing and thoughts that allow a higher order of thinking and understanding. Overall, still the 'mind' and emotions, yet contemplate deeply. Try to understand, but specifically via the qi channels, not the energetically unconnected mundane mind.

In your translation qi ducts are in the Neiye (I really appreciate your input in the translation of the Neiye BTW) 氣 道 乃 生 the qi ducts in the human body originate in jing生 乃 思 once originating this qi turns into thinking思 乃 知 thinking becomes knowledge知 乃 止 矣 knowledge reaches its limit. Are they seen as a negative thing? The descent of qi into the mundane and mundane thinking? Or are they positive, knowledge of a higher order, though even this reaches its limits?

Maybe this sort of framework (image from Damo Mitchell's book) might be relevant in terms of jing/qi/shen being gathered externally. If Original spirit is always existing in everyone, yet it comes and goes, we could see this as Original Spirit shifting between the spirit body and (subtle) energy body level. Same with jing and qi, they come and go. The task is how to get them to stay on the (subtle) energy level, in between the spirit and physical body. I'm not saying this is how it is necessarily, just offering a possible way to view it. My sense is that Original Spirit (to me Yuan Shen or True Yin) is the hardest to maintain in our subtle energy body, but it is necessary for 'spirit-like understanding' or the wisdom of the sage to be embodied. 神 明 之 極 This highest of spirit-like understanding – 照 乎 Is it illuminating? 知 萬 物 You will understand the ten thousand creatures. 有 神 自 在 身 There exists a spirit[-like understanding] naturally located in the self – 一 往 一 來 One moment it goes, one moment it arrives; 莫 之 能 思 There is no one who can contemplate it.

Yes that is exactly what I mean. Sorry, I should have added the lines in my previous post. From Linnell: , 心 乃 反 濟 Your heart/mind then returns [to its original nature] successfully. 能 反 其 性 You can return to your [original] nature, 性 將 大 定 And your nature will be exceptionally settled. However, if they do not return [to their original nature], 此 生 之 忒 This creates errors. (Spiritual intelligence/Yuan shen = the original consciousness.)

The Neiye advocates a return to Original nature. I don't think the Neiye is saying external 'spirits' are required to return to one's Original nature.

Qi ducts are interesting, is this a common term in Daoism? Does it relate to specific channels? Can we say that the qi ducts originate in the LDT since they originate in jing? 精也者this seed，气之精者也 is the seed of qi。气道the duct of qi乃 from it 生grows The qi ducts don't naturally exist, until the seed of qi is 'planted'?

It is only me promoting the neidan agenda, but I do so because I think it is relevant, not because I see neidan in every random Daoist sentence. Something like "When qi is guided, vital essence [Jing] is generated" in section 4 is a very neidan way of looking at jing, at least I will think so until the error of my perspective is pointed out to me. In your perspective you prefer the concept that 'spirit' is already present within, though dawei speaks of the Neiye as having the sense that spirit is something to be gathered in from the outside. You in your turn are just turning a blind eye to what the Neiye itself may be saying, by preferring your preconceived notion. That or dawei has misinterpreted the Neiye on this point, there are many possibilities.

I find this verse interesting: When qi is guided, vital essence [Jing] is generated.When it is generated, then there is thinking.When there is thinking, then there is knowing.When there is knowing, then you should cease. It seems to contradict this earlier verse: 彼 道 之 情 The nature of that Dao惡 意 與 聲 Detests thoughts and words about it.修 心 靜 意 But when you cultivate your heart/mind [xin] and still your thoughts,道 乃 可 得 Dao can then be attained. The only sense I can make of it is that cultivating jing/xin will lead to thinking and knowing of a different order to the mundane mind's thinking, in effect it will lead to knowing/wisdom, which I conceive of as True Yin being activated. This cultivating jing is an active thing, it is guided, I would say by intention. What this verse doesn't supply is how to cultivate jing or form the right intention if not by the mundane mind.

This is a neidan understanding of Hun and Po from the commentary on Awakening to Reality, can you say with certainty that this perspective is not present in the Neiye? It does seem to me to offer a way of making sense of the 'spirit' as being something that is gathered in from outside.

Just referring to the Hun soul and "the Neiye appears like the spirit is something to be gathered in (from the outside)," is it possible to understand this as the Hun leaves the body for heaven (while we are still alive) and the Hun needs to be brought back down into the body?

If the Daoist take on the Hun and Po souls is that the Hun tends to leave the body for heaven and the Po tends to descend into the earth and be wasted, and that combining them is the highest teaching (according to Zai Wo from your quote above, and also the Neidan perspective), it would be a big break if the Neiye sees development as from the animal soul [Po] to a spirit [Hun].

There is reference to ghosts and spirits later in the Neiye, maybe it's relevant in sorting out the meaning in section one: . 思 之 而 不 通 Should you contemplate it yet not comprehend it, 鬼 神 將 通 之 Know that ghosts and spirits can comprehend it. 非 鬼 神 之 力 也 However, it is not comprehended by the power of ghosts and spirits – 精 氣 之 極 也 But by the utmost of essence’s Qi!

I think to make sense of the jing's qi's, and shen's is not possible without going ahead. For example towards the end fountain like qi and cloud like qi seem to be differentiated - at this stage I'm inclined to read the Neiye as written by someone trying to distinguish between various states of qi development without a lot of clearly defined historical definitions regarding the differences between jing qi, shen and yuan jing, yuan qi and yuan shen to help them specify clearly which energy they're referring to at any particular time.

Is wu wei a later concept or is it implied in the Neiye with 'naturally born, naturally complete' etc? My thinking is that if wu wei is achieved by clearing the heart then De will arrive naturally, so it needn't matter intellectually whether it comes from an external or internal place. It arrives naturally from wherever it was or is. @dawei, might the De as spirit relate to alchemy's understanding of the spirit (True Yin) as going upwards and having to be reversed and brought back downwards, perhaps into the centre? Developed De is associated with wisdom and completion, which only comes after the internal conditions are appropriate.

I've been struggling with the 'citizen' issue for a few days, and finally saw my way forward in the Chinese cultural notion of the sage-king, which Apech alluded to earlier. The quote below frames it in a way I can start to understand: Daoist philosophy characteristically contrasts the Cosmic Dao in its naturalness, spontaneity, and eternal rhythmic fluctuation with the artificiality, constraint, and stasis of human society and culture. Humanity will flourish only to the extent that the human way (rendao) is attuned to or harmonized with the Cosmic Dao, in part through the wise rule of sage-kings who practice wuwei, or the virtue of taking no action that is not in accord with nature. https://www.britannica.com/story/what-is-the-difference-between-daoism-and-confucianism