Bindi

Restrict desires as in sexual abstinence? Maybe my understanding is way out, in the translations I have at hand ch 13 is written 8 Jing: put aside thinking of it, 9 Still your effort to control it. 10 Strictly and reverently venerate it 11 And Jing will naturally stablize. - Shazi Daoren Still your attempts to imagine and conceive of it. Relax your efforts to think about and control it. Abide in dignity and reverence And vital essence will naturally become stable. - Yueya's PDF 精 想 思 之 This essence – consider it and contemplate it, 寧 念 治 之 Rather than study ways to regulate it. 嚴 容 畏 敬 Keeping a serious appearance, and an attitude of awe and respect*, 精 將 至 定 Essence will arrive and settle. - Linnell I don't see how your references in chapters 7 and 10 relate, maybe when we get to them I will see what you mean.

My question was in relation to forcing oneself to desire less, not forcing and qi. Can you point to the verse/s in the Neiye that assert that forcing oneself to desire less is the right method?

Is it definitely meditation or could it be a more active kind of thinking, like contemplation?

I don't think desire has been mentioned at all in the first two chapters. Force was mentioned in relation to qi and how to interact with it: 是 故 此 氣 也 Thus this Qi –不 可 止 以 力 Can not be brought to rest by using force,而 可 安 以 德 But can be calmed by using De.

Can you show me where this is asserted in the Neiye?

Can you explain more about what you mean by 'mediate'?

I didn't show Linnell's English translation so as to not prejudice the discussion on cultivation.

If there is no method as you say, then why do you assert that forcing yourself to desire less is the right method? It's not a method that I use.

This was from my copy of the Neiye by Linnell in a later verse, but it seemed relevant because Linnell himself translated 修 as cultivate. My best understanding is that 修 refers to 'repairing' the 心.

I've researched a bit about proto-Daoism just now, and found that the “Neiye” 内業 , Daode jing 道德經 , and Zhuangzi 莊子 are all considered to be proto-Daoism/classical Daoism/early Daoism. What I was interested in earlier was in what ways the Neiye is different to the Daode jing in its philosophy and methods, because I was assuming (and might be wildly wrong in this assumption) that Daoists in general look to the DDJ.

I think it is important that the Neiye's method of 'reverting back to what is natural' is fundamentally based on opposites, perhaps someone with more general understanding of yin and yang in Chinese history would know whether the opposites referred to in the Neiye are reminiscent of the way they are used in either the Yijing or in Daoism. The Neiye is being classified as 'proto-Daoist' as far as I can understand it because it doesn't align with Daoist thinking? But does it align with Yijing philosophy?

I think emptying the heart of worries and happiness, love and anger, and desire for profit, is not actually achieved by commonplace morality though. Morality is a restriction on these things, more like a suppression of them, the clearing that is being referred to reminds me more of clearing accumulated conditioning and returning to a clear slate. Re: Cultivation, how does the Neiye refer to its method in this line from later in the text? Maybe a term can be agreed on from this. 修 心 靜 意 道 乃 可 得

Not outer force but inner force, not outer voice but inner voice?

"According to the earliest comprehensive dictionary of Chinese characters (ca. 100 CE), Xu Shen’s Shuowen jiezi (Explaining Single-component Graphs and Analyzing Compound Characters), yin refers to “a closed door, darkness and the south bank of a river and the north side of a mountain.” Yang refers to “height, brightness and the south side of a mountain.” I find this interesting given that the first two verses refer to 'bright' and 'dark.' Further associating Heaven with yang and its opposite 'abyss' with yin is also valid IMO. I cannot help but wonder if these are early precursors to the more refined yin/yang notion of later times. '而 可 迎 以 意 ...can be made welcome by using your intent' can help clarify the question in the first verse about whether vital essence arrives on its own or if intention is used. We can use the inner power we do have to calm the jing (which is now referred to as qi?) that exists in everyone and everything, and then use intention to establish the conditions in which jing will come to 'rest'. These conditions are referred to later, so I won't refer to them here. When this qi is maintained/held onto/nurtured/guarded and never lost or let go of (I would assume in the chest as specified in the text of the first verse), this leads to developed inner power/de/perfect virtue. The dictionary defines developed as advanced or elaborated to a specified degree, thus this leads to inner power that has been advanced or elaborated to some extent.

I was looking into the term xin today, it’s certainly a very comprehensive word, a modern Chinese-English dictionary (Chen, 2001) translates xin as: heart; mind; feeling; intention; centre. Xin was further described in an article as "the root of physical and mental life. It is the seat of all emotions, and embodies the inherent goodness of human nature and wisdom. Xin helps to guide the individual’s way of life and attitude, and can lead one to deep contentment." http://www.academicjournals.org/article/article1379496939_Li%20et%20al.pdf So though xin seems to be associated with heart and mind, it’s not heart and our Western notion of mind, but mind that exists in the heart? How do people cultivate xin?

"The primary functions of the Three Dantians is to gather, store, and transform life-force energy." JAJ In the first verse there is definitely storing. Perhaps gathering is also suggested, as this earlier post from dawei implies: 藏 - conceal/hide/harbor/collect. If there is a reference to transforming later in the text then this may solve the issue of whether this first verse is referring to a dantian proper, or if it is just a reference to storing (and gathering?) essence in an early foreshadowing of neidan perhaps.

Excellent

There are a couple of lines that seem to suggest a transformation: 是 謂 成 德 This is called developed De. 能 搏 乎 Can you consolidate it? I suspect we will revisit the location issue multiple times throughout this text.

'Centre' is referred to multiple times in the Neiye, eg. 治 心 在 於 中 A regulated heart/mind resides in his center, and 中 不 靜 If the center is not still, 心 不 治 The heart/mind will not be regulated, though I agree there is little mention of LDT and UDT. The closest I can see is 上 察 於 天 Your head can observe what is in heaven, 下 極 於 地 Your lowest extreme is on earth, 蟠 滿 九 州 And your coils fill the nine provinces.N 何 謂 解 之 What does it mean to be liberated by it? 在 於 心 安 You will reside in a calm heart/mind. But does this count, I don't know?

So jing operates regardless, but jing in the chest/breast of a human only is equated with 'sage.' If jing rises and transforms, the transformed jing might well be considered 'higher' than qi. But it is there for the taking only if specific prerequisites referred to later are adhered to. When it collects in the center of the breast of people, We call them sages. Unless this translation is wildly off, I can't honestly see how it could refer to anything other than a specific location.

It seems to me that this vital essence exists widely, presumably in everything and everyone, but only a sage stores it, even hoards it? in his heart. It is active, to hide, conceal, hoard, store, collect, all these actions are volitional, so not like dew naturally collecting, which happens naturally, storing vital essence in the heart in this sense is not natural or at least not normal or standard, it is a deliberate activity. @dawei, in this specific verse, not looking ahead or taking on a Daoist reticence to clearly name places in the body, there is a physical location, the breast, the chest, which may as well be called the middle dantian, just as vital essence may as well be called jing?

The first thing I notice is that the place a sage stores this generative vital essence is given a very definite and exact physical location, in the centre of the breast/chest.

I found this to be very clear explanation of neidan, from Daoism Handbook CHAPTER 16 (LOWELL SKAR and FABRIZIO PREGADIO)

What do you make of ch.3 As you may have gathered I find this most important - with the system I follow the heart also has to be cleaned 'fit for a queen,' and the idea that the jing will come of itself and stabilise there when that level of cleaning has been achieved makes perfect sense to me.

My understanding of the Neidan process is the same as is summarised in The Golden Elixir website on the Dantians page. That is that the elixir is generated and heated in the lower dantian, moved from the lower to the middle dantian to be nourished, and then moved to the upper dantian. I understand this process as the water being brought upwards which contains True yang. I've never come across the idea of freezing anything in the Neidan process, and I can't personally imagine a place for such a concept.