Bindi

No, alas it doesn't state how to do it. But even understanding the basic premise of True yin and True yang can be quite enlightening. If you posit this as an ultimate truth, ie. that it is the most natural thing in the world that True Yin and True yang have the desire to join 'in the centre', and that everything that you are doing is in an effort (even if misguided) to allow this to happen, does this clarify anything for you? I think it's a very specific way of looking at things, and I do believe it is true of our fundamental true nature, I believe the Chinese alchemists have correctly diagnosed our human plight. How to resolve the disjunction between True yin and True yang is another topic What are you questioning with "what is which"? Which 'what' isn't clear?

I don't believe Daoist alchemy is the same as kundalini yoga at all. Visualising fire at the base of the spine sounds like kundalini yoga to me.

I agree the Neiye doesn't refer to methods so much, but I think it does talk about *clearing/cleaning what is already there as part of the necessary process. Without this process of cleaning or clearing of the xin, however xin is defined, it seems to run the risk of spiritual bypassing. *chú 除 "eliminate; remove; clean out

If we could apply the concept of yin and yang to feeling and thinking respectively, this might be a model for the way in which they should ideally intertwine - both entirely definable individually, but each flowing into the other. And yet there are divisions in Chinese thought, yin and yang/true yin and true yang, the three dantians and jing qi and shen, I find these divisions meaningful, and important on the way to 'wholeness'.

I don't think the mind informs the heart so much as overrides the heart when not aligned. Before being aligned it is the heart that needs to be cultivated, the mind merely needs to be silenced. It sounds like a power imbalance, the voice of the heart that is drowned out needs to be encouraged, and the powerful voice of the mind silenced. When aligned the heart and the head must of course synchronise, along with the lower dantian, that's the whole point of the endeavour.

My understanding of the process is that the mind interferes with the xin, and for the xin to revert back to its original nature the mind and the xin need to be untangled. Perhaps the heart has its own consciousness, which is drowned out by our dominant head consciousness, and the work is to give back a sort of autonomy to the heart.

Agreed. I imagine understanding 'xin' is key. The West is starting to refer to the 'heart-brain', eg here, maybe it's the same search, just a couple of millenia later?

In a similar vein, cultivate the heart but remove the thoughts that interfere? 修 心 靜 意 But when you cultivate your heart/mind and still your thoughts, 道 乃 可 得 Dao can then be attained. From the Neiye (trans. Linnel)

Just re-reading this thread today, and I found Kara_mia's comment to be potentially enlightening, and something I wasn't able to grasp when it was made. Xing when the heart returns to its true nature, xin when it is confused and made sick by the part of the mind that interferes with the true nature of the heart.

@YueyaYes I do tend to identify everything outside the light of consciousness as my shadow, not just what is socially repressed. It includes things I can't bear to feel, and possibly material from past lives, though I struggle to believe in reincarnation fully.

I was shown a big part of my shadow when I was 12 and dreamt of a crazy old man sitting in a chair staring out of a window, stroking a cat. I woke up from the dream and heard the words "he is me". This was a part of my shadow getting my attention very early in my life, and I have tried to bring it to light in its entirety from that day on. 'Tis a long bag we drag behind us indeed...

I’m just now reading pages 54-55 of A Chinese model of cognition : the Neiye, fourth century B.C.E. by Fabien Simonis here which I feel speaks directly to your post.

To me there does seem to be an aversion to 'you wei' from many posters here, Daoist and non-Daoist alike, and a premature fascination with wu wei. Would you refer to 'cultivation' and 'cleaning' as you wei or wu wei?

I haven't been able to compare many translations, but the Roth translation has: Diligently clean out its lodging place [敬除其舍]And its vital essence will naturally arrive [精將自來]. To me making everything calm only on the surface level leaves the deep mess undisturbed but still running the show subconsciously.

The problem might be that the Neiye is antithetical to the wu-wei position so stressed in the DDJ. From this article by Russel Kirkland VARIETIES OF TAOISM IN ANCIENT CHINA: A PRELIMINARY COMPARISON OF THEMES IN THE NEI YEH AND OTHER TAOIST CLASSICS, which is well worth reading in full:

I was quoting from the translation I found here: Do you have links to other translations apart from Eno's, I'd be interested in comparing them.

Ok, I read it as do the necessary work and the heart will then return to its natural state eg. 7 If you are able to cast off sorrow, happiness, 8 joy, anger, desire and profit-seeking, 9 Your Heart will return to its natural flow 11 The Way's sensation: 12 How can you be in tune with its sound? 13 Cultivate your Heart and you will resonate in tune. 14 The Way thereby can be attained 1 The Way has no fixed position; 2 In the cultivated Heart, it gracefully abides. 3 When the heart is calm and Energy aligned 4 The Way can thereby repose. I take "cultivate" as casting off "sorrow, happiness, joy, anger, desire and profit-seeking." When the heart returns to its natural flow, it should then effortlessly resonate with the Way/Dao.

A possible understanding of this one-two-three from an alchemical perspective might be that as soon as the LDT starts to be cultivated, the One that was resting there as potential (in the LDT which until then also only existed as potential) gives birth to the initial two, yin/yang first referred to as a girl and a boy. When cultivated and brought up to consciousness in the UDT this yin/yang dyad give birth to a new energy pattern that exists between them, something quite 'Daoish' and generative.

You said "... The central role of the heart (Xin) is interesting too as that is not the emphasis in most alchemy works..." So I posted an alchemical illustration where cleansing the heart was relevant in neidan. As for the Neiye, it is primarily concerned with cleansing and cultivating the heart, as you seemed to say yourself in your previous post?

A much more understandable translation, the other one made no sense Interesting, thanks, I'll have to think about this one.

I do like this sense where consciousness as shen and energy as qi are united, I have read that oneness refers to different things in different contexts, maybe this is one context? And other times it refers to Dao. edit: Unless of course uniting shen and qi (and jing) = realising Dao. Uniting yin and yang being a different issue.

Thanks TT. But how does "Dao" as a translation of "one" work in this line of the Neiye 1 Those able to transform One thing are called 'Spiritual'; or in the first line of the DDJ ch42 The Dao gives birth to the One.

Regarding the heart in alchemy there is this Chinese woodblock illustration of neidan "Cleansing the heart-mind and retiring into concealment", 1615 Xingming guizhi 性命圭旨 (Pointers on Spiritual Nature and Bodily Life). I don't know what 'One' refers to in the Neiye, is it relevant in relation to DDJ42? zhang 9 "One" 1 Those able to transform One thing are called 'Spiritual'; 2 Those able to change One affair are called 'wise'. 3 To transform without expending Energy; 4 To change without expending wisdom: 5 By grasping the One only the Master is able to do this! 6 Grasp the One; do not loose it, 7 And you will be able to master the myriad things. 8 The Master acts upon things, 9 And is not acted upon by things 10 Attain to the guiding principle of the One.

It's easy enough to examine the Neiye, the "proto-Daoist text that clearly influenced the Daode jing, Zhuangzi, and other classics." There is clear reference to neidan-like cultivation in the Neiye imo, which could have easily developed over time into more modern daoist alchemy as we know it if the Neiye instructions were followed, with reference to jing, qi, shen, water flowing upwards, inner cultivation to directly apprehend the "all-pervading cosmic force."

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