Bindi

Working from Pregadio's commentary, True Lead is True Yang within Yin. The first few lines made simpler then say Hold True Yang within Yin firmly and seek with intention; do not let time easily slip by. It's hard to know what True Yang is, so to me the only thing that can be done initially is to seek what is Yin (as it contains True Yang), and this quite deliberately and even urgently. According to Zhang Boduan, intention is all that is needed.

The lower dantian is just below the navel, attention on the navel is close enough. I think noticing energy at the lower dantian requires a calm mind though, and might be something to consider if/when your energy has calmed down overall. Lower dantian work starts to carefully reverse the normal downwards (dysfunctional) energy flow that exists in us all, it's like trying to make a cascading waterfall flow upwards in a way, but it seems this initial downward flow has already been disrupted for you - unintentionally releasing kundalini energy has thrown in a wild card, and as Pilgrim said in another thread, when you play that card you might have to just see it through, there's no going back. I'm not entirely convinced of that, but it does seem to be true in many cases. Best of luck in sorting it all out anyway.

Yes I guess I agree "Anyone doing any form of practice is doing so out of a need." But it is also true that different sorts of practices engender different energy results. I personally see Kundalini as a qi deviation when it happens too early, maybe its appropriate if it happens after preparing the channels correctly, in which case I imagine it might lead to an altogether different result.

Hi Pilgrim, and Happy Thanksgiving to you too (though I'm Australian and we don't have Thanksgiving here). Yes I've heard that you just have to go with it, but I've also heard that it can calm down if other methods are followed. I don't think it's true to say that you are 'chosen' by the mother and awakened when the time is right, more often the awakening of kundalini seems to be from doing dodgy practices that make it happen, and people just have to deal with the fallout when it does. And then they deal with it, and life goes on, and they still have work to do to become 'enlightened' or whatever people would like to call the ultimate state no matter what route they took to deal with kundalini.

In Buddhist monastery's don't they get you to go and work in the garden, and quit all energy/meditation work? That might work. I don't know how successful that is, but getting involved in a tradition that doesn't promote kundalini might be helpful.

From a Daoist perspective it is important to focus on the lower dantian first, just below your navel. You can get a broad overview of the lower dantian here. Maybe just start with resting attention on this point, until you learn more and decide on a path to follow. Simplify things.

Yes I am misinterpreting WuJi, but I think I get the order now. My interest in Hundun as "unintelligible; chaotic; messy; mentally dense; innocent as a child" might be more the way to WuJi, in that the dull/low/humble/dark/obscure/female force is the one to grasp and hold to in order to unite it with its opposite, paving the way to return to the first or primordial breath (in Star's translation) and No limits/WuJi. In verse 28 of the Daodejing, Laozi references Wuji as “No Limits” (translated by Jonathan Star) and "Unlimited" (translated by Ellen Marie Chen). Jonathon Star 28 Hold your male side with your female side Hold your bright side with your dull side Hold your high side with your low side Then you will be able to hold the whole world When the opposing forces unite within there comes a power abundant in its giving and unerring in its effect Flowing through everything It returns one to the First Breath Guiding everything It returns one to No Limits Embracing everything It returns one to the Uncarved Block When the block is divided it becomes something useful and leaders can rule with just a few pieces But the Sage holds the Block complete Holding all things within himself he preserves the Great Unity which cannot be ruled or divided Ellen Marie Chen 1989 28 To know (chih) the male, But to abide (shou) by the female (tz'u), Is to be the valley (ch'i) of the world. Being the valley of the world, And departing (li) not from the everlasting power (ch'ang te), One again returns to the infant (ying erh). To know (chih) the white (pe), But to abide (shou) by the black (heh), Is to be the model (shih) of the world. Being the model of the world, And deviating (t'eh) not from the everlasting power, One again returns to the unlimited (wu-chi). To know (chih) the illustrious (yung), But to abide (shou) by the obscure (ju), Is to be the valley (ku) of the world. Being the valley of the world, One's everlasting power (ch'ang te) being full, One again returns to the uncarved wood (p'u). The uncarved wood disperses to become vessels (ch'i), To be used (yung) by the sage as officials. Therefore a great institution does not mutilate (ko).

I am a little dense because I don't really get what either of you are saying. The fault might lie with my equating WuJi with Hundun. I resonate with the concept of Hundun as "unintelligible; chaotic; messy; mentally dense; innocent as a child" which is an extension of Hundun as "primordial chaos; the nebulous state of the universe before heaven and earth separated." It is Hundun as "unintelligible; chaotic; messy; mentally dense; innocent as a child" that I understand primordial qi as passing through, so chances are we're talking apples and oranges when the term being discussed is WuJi. Qigong master Kenneth S. Cohen seems to be suggesting something similar to my perspective in this quote from his article Hunyuan Qigong: Tracing Life Back to its Roots.

If primordial qi flows everywhere, why not also potentially through WuJi? Maybe analogous to the particles that pop into existence even in a vacuum.

I see it like this, if we return to Wu-ji which to me is primarily primordial chaos, it allows true qi/primordial qi which I understand as 'wind' to be established and flow, like the proverbial breath of fresh air. Returning to emptiness in order to start again, but this time based on something true and pure.

My quote was from the Shaolin Wahnam website https://shaolin.org/zen/void.html the writer is Zen Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit who also recognises Daoism as part of his practice though he finds Daoism too limited in a couple of ways. Knowing both and practising both puts him in a good position to critique their endgames. On the same page that I got my quote from he says we are lucky to have direct experience of both Zen and Taoist philosophies and practices. With direct experience of both practices, one can clearly see and feel the differences. This is what I mean when I say that there is a huge chasm between scholarly speculation and direct experience. I am aware of the rainbow body if this is the immortality you are referring to. Differences between the Daoist immortal body and Dzogchen rainbow body are for another thread that no one would ever like to see.

Is the aim for primordial qi/wind to flow freely through wuji/hundun?

Agreed.

"Typically, Zen practitioners throughout history have aimed to return to Emptiness; Taoist practitioners have aimed to become Immortals. Returning to Emptiness is transcendental, whereas becoming an Immortal is still phenomenal."

What about enlightenment of the three dantians? Starting with the lower dantian.

If the aim of Taoist emptiness is the generation of an immortal spirit, would this contradict Buddhist emptiness? Granted not all modern Taoists, I imagine especially Western Taoists, would see the generation of an immortal spirit as the aim of emptiness, but I think it could be argued that historically this was the aim, as I attempted to demonstrate in a previous post

There is a lot within the Chinese way of thinking that is so resonant with what I have found following my own way, I can't help thinking their philosophy is as near to the truth as possible in many details. This includes the possibility of a medicine for everlasting life, which is as an immortal spirit of course, not as a flesh and blood person.

If this is true, then it suggests that some early Daoist penetrated into the very heart of reality within him or herself, and shared that knowledge.

Apparently in the right circumstances light can even be created from a vacuum... Scientists at Chalmers University of Technology have succeeded in creating light from vacuum – observing an effect first predicted over 40 years ago. The results will be published tomorrow (Wednesday) in the journal Nature. In an innovative experiment, the scientists have managed to capture some of the photons that are constantly appearing and disappearing in the vacuum. The experiment is based on one of the most counterintuitive, yet, one of the most important principles in quantum mechanics: that vacuum is by no means empty nothingness. In fact, the vacuum is full of various particles that are continuously fluctuating in and out of existence. They appear, exist for a brief moment and then disappear again. Since their existence is so fleeting, they are usually referred to as virtual particles. Chalmers scientist, Christopher Wilson and his co-workers have succeeded in getting photons to leave their virtual state and become real photons, i.e. measurable light. The physicist Moore predicted way back in 1970 that this should happen if the virtual photons are allowed to bounce off a mirror that is moving at a speed that is almost as high as the speed of light. The phenomenon, known as the dynamical Casimir effect, has now been observed for the first time in a brilliant experiment conducted by the Chalmers scientists. https://phys.org/news/2011-11-scientists-vacuum.html This last line especially seems to be a brilliant description of a vacuum. So how did early Daoists get this, was it just a fluke that they got it right, or did they know first hand somehow? Light may be tied up with it all, sure. But I don't know how much Chinese and Greek conceptions refer to light, I've not looked into this.

It's not ideal, but this is the wikipedia definition of Taoist and Buddhist emptiness: Taoism In Taoism, attaining a state of emptiness is viewed as a state of stillness and placidity which is the "mirror of the universe" and the "pure mind".[23] The Tao Te Ching claims that emptiness is related to the "Tao, the Great Principle, the Creator and Sustainer of everything in the universe". It is argued that it is the "state of mind of the Taoist disciple who follows the Tao", who has successfully emptied the mind "of all wishes and ideas not fitted with the Tao's Movement". For a person who attains a state of emptiness, the "still mind of the sage is the mirror of heaven and earth, the glass of all things", a state of "vacancy, stillness, placidity, tastelessness, quietude, silence, and non-action" which is the "perfection of the Tao and its characteristics, the "mirror of the universe" and the "pure mind".[23] Buddhism The Buddhist term emptiness (Skt. śūnyatā) refers specifically to the idea that everything is dependently originated, including the causes and conditions themselves, and even the principle of causality itself. It is not nihilism, nor is it meditating on nothingness.[18] Instead, it refers to the absence (emptiness) of inherent existence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emptiness

Is it reasonable to say that primordial chaos which contains unseparated elements, or vacuums which have particles popping into existence like a boiling sea, are actually empty? I don't see this word empty as even remotely suitable, the understanding of 'vacuum' needs to be reconsidered in light of quantum physics, and why confuse primordial chaos with emptiness? How can chaos ever be empty? The alternative is that these are in fact two different concepts, formless chaos vs emptiness, which underscore two different philosophies. Re Genesis Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. This seems to refer to the planet earth, which was clearly in existence, and covered in water, it seems to be a creation story about a much later period than the Daoist and Greek offerings.

Before creation began there was Hundun, "primordial and central chaos in Chinese cosmogony", the "cosmogonic chaos before the emergence of form". If this is posited as the primordial state, the return is to formless chaos, not emptiness.

[The Quanzhen master and founder] Wang Zhe’s own writings refer to two men – one Taoist and one Buddhist – who appear to have given him some guidance... [He] appears to have been particularly familiar with two major Mahayana Buddhist scriptures – the Diamond Sutra and the Heart Sutra. He was probably also familiar with some Chan literature... However, as Hachiya has astutely observed, Wang Zhe did not abide by the thoroughgoing negation and non-assertion of Mahayana Buddhist philosophy. Fond as he was of borrowing Buddhist language to preach detachment from this provisional, fleeting world of samsara, Wang Zhe ardently believed in the eternal, universal Real Nature/Radiant Spirit that is the ground and wellspring of consciousness (spirit, shen, xing), and vitality (qi, ming) within all living beings. This to him was not “empty”(lacking inherent existence); it was fully Real (zhen). From The Teachings and Practices of the Early Quanzhen Taoist Masters by Stephen Eskildsen (pages 6-7)

There seem to be these two different ideas about the goal of Daoism. One is emptiness, one is immortality. To say that emptiness (even if qualified in some way) is the goal seems to be missing some major portion of Daoist thought. Livia Kohn, Ph. D., Professor of Religion and East Asian Studies whose specialty was the study of Daoist religion and Chinese long life practices and who has written 12 books on Daoism writes: Spiritual immortality, the goal of Daoism, raises the practices to a yet higher level. To attain it, people have to transform all their qi into primordial qi and proceed to refine it to subtler levels. This finer qi will eventually turn into pure spirit, with which practitioners increasingly identify to become transcendent spirit-people. The path that leads there involves intensive meditation and trance training as well as more radical forms of diet and other longevity practices. Immortality implies the overcoming of the natural tendencies of the body and its transformation into a different kind of qi-constellation. The result is a bypassing of death, so that the end of the body has no impact on the continuation of the spirit-person. In addition, practitioners attain supersensory powers and eventually gain residence in wondrous otherworldly paradises. Livia Kohn, Health and Long Life: The Chinese Way This is a Daoist site, why is this not being recognised as Daoism?

An official answer from the academic Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy is: This suggests that emptying ourselves of all conditioned discriminations is required by the natural flow of reality. I think Buddhism might concur with this. Perhaps the point at which they diverge is the result of releasing our conditioned discriminations. For the Buddhist the result is the realisation of emptiness, for the early Daoists I believe the result was "to be born anew" or become immortal. The "Yuan You" (遠遊 "Far-off Journey") My spirit darted forth and did not return to me, And my body, left tenantless, grew withered and lifeless. Then I looked into myself to strengthen my resolution, And sought to learn from where the primal spirit issues. In emptiness and silence I found serenity; In tranquil inaction I gained true satisfaction. I heard how once Red Pine had washed the world's dust off: I would model myself on the pattern he had left me. I honoured the wondrous powers of the [真人] Pure Ones, And those of past ages who had become [仙] Immortals. They departed in the flux of change and vanished from men's sight, Leaving a famous name that endures after them. From the Chuci (楚辭 "Lyrics of Chu") 3rd-2nd century BCE