Bindi

Emptiness in the early 'Philosophical' Daoist writing as well as the early inward training manual the Neiye seems to mean the value of emptying oneself, leaving one free to be filled with the Dao, and therefore led by it, to become One with the Dao. Emptiness in Buddhist terms is more complicated, but it seems to be the end result of practices. Emptiness full of potential sounds like a more Buddhist take to me. So the next question might be what does being at One with the Dao entail?

I came across this book Daoist Magical Transformation Skills: Dream Magic, Shape-Shifting, Soul Travel, and Sex Magic written by Professor Jerry Alan Johnson, online, while searching for information on something else, the goldfish in neidan actually, and if anyone knows anything about these neidan goldfish that would be great (there’s nothing much online), but in the meantime I thought that a lot of people on this site might be interested in the information in JAJ’s book. It covers a lot of topics and gives the Daoist version of a lot of the topics discussed on this site, including 'three types of psychic ability', walking through walls (one of my favourite sections), healing, projecting, etc etc.

If you are saying the Neiye only deals with natural energy related to health and longevity, it's hard to explain why it then claims that with this energy... 乃 能 窮 天 地 Then you can span the limits of heaven and earth, 被 四 海 And cover the four seas. I have yet to see anyone on this forum discussing qi as referred to in the Neiye and as shown in the Neijing Tu, as an endless flow of water developed in the lower dantian and brought upwards to the head area to pool there. But if managing this isn't discussed in complicated ways then it is just a lesser achievement related to health and longevity? The Neiye is simple, it says to "Expand your heart/mind and free it", and develop your qi to be 'magnanimous and vast', when this is accomplished the rest should just fall into place naturally anyway.

The only point to emptiness for me is because it allows the subtle system to be filled with qi, and then seeing what develops from there. From the Neiye (403-221 BCE, and even considered by some scholars to pre-date the Tao te ching): 有 神 自 在 身 There exists a spirit naturally located in the self – 一 往 一 來 One moment it goes, one moment it arrives; 莫 之 能 思 There is no one who can contemplate it. 失 之 必 亂 Lose it and you will certainly be confused, 得 之 必 治 Attain it and you will certainly be regulated. 敬 除 其 舍 Respectfully empty its dwelling , 精 將 自 來 And essence will naturally arrive. 精 想 思 之 This essence – consider it and contemplate it, 寧 念 治 之 Rather than study ways to regulate it. 嚴 容 畏 敬 Keeping a serious appearance, and an attitude of awe and respect, 精 將 至 定 Essence will arrive and settle. 得 之 而 勿 捨 When you attain it and never let go of it, 耳 目 不 淫 Your ears and eyes will be restrained, 心 無 他 圖 Your heart/mind will have no other plans Your reference states that "attaining the state of emptiness requires closing the openings", but again there is this possibility of going beyond this, when full of qi "the nine bodily openings are then open [to the flow of Qi]." 精 存 自 生 Where essence exists, there is naturally life – 其 外 安 榮 Outside you, calmness flourishes; 內 藏 以 為 泉 原 It collects inside you, thus acting as a primal spring. 浩 然 和 平 Like a vast lake, it is harmonious and equable. 以 為 氣 淵 It thus becomes a fountainhead of Qi. 淵 之 不 涸 As long as the fountainhead does not dry up, 四 體 乃 固 The four limbs are then strong. 泉 之 不 竭 When the spring is not used up, 九 竅 遂 通 The nine bodily openings are then open [to the flow of Qi]. 乃 能 窮 天 地 Then you can span the limits of heaven and earth, 被 四 海 And cover the four seas.

"Wu Shouyang taught that the underlying essence of Buddhism, Confucianism and Daoism was exactly the same..." Not surprisingly then he concludes that the Embryo is formless and apparently equivalent to Buddhist attainment. Just to be perfectly clear, I believe the Embryo has a subtle form, not a physical matter form.

In not finding truth in Buddha's conclusions I am discarding his words, which according to you is self-important and prideful, though in your very next sentence I am required to not believe anyone's words and find out for myself? Buddha himself advised people not to accept his words on blind faith, but to decide for themselves whether his teachings were right, do you think that this advice is so shallow that only agreement will be allowed after examining them? It so happens that what I have found out for myself doesn't align with Buddha, though it does align more or less with a few other paths. Not all 'masters' are saying the same thing, to accept them all as pointing to the truth would be nonsensical. Perhaps some are describing parts of the elephant, but I'd bet some aren't even doing that. The fourth kosha (vijnanamaya kosha) is the sheath of discernment. Vijnana means “the power of judgement or discernment.” Is it so offensive to you that I choose to develop this kosha in its turn, so as to find my way clearly to the truth? All koshas need to be developed. They are a much undervalued path here in the West, if we followed them we wouldn't be so afraid to think and feel and discern for ourselves.

And yet... So many people have given so many interpretations of the Elixir. Some are more Buddhist influenced for sure, but there is this fundamental idea that Pregadio refers to (above), it's hard to square this up with emptiness beyond form and matter. Maybe you like to, because it suits your perspective, but it suits my perspective to see the elixir as having subtle form.

I don't see how a term that encompasses the notion that "everything is without substance or soul" could also encompass the fundamental concepts of 'medicine' or 'elixir' or 'immortal embryo' as a vital subtle body necessity that needs to be actively cultivated.

Flogging a dead horse maybe, but your answer of yab/yum as the union of emptiness and luminosity captures what bothers me about Buddhism, if only for my own understanding. I;m fine with 'luminosity', but what it joins with in neidan's terms would not be 'emptiness'. Basically, there is a subtle something as opposed to an emptiness that is produced in neidan. This vital subtle ingredient is produced in the lower dantian, and brought up to the middle, and then the upper dantian. Neidan without this subtle ingredient or 'medicine' or 'elixir' is a non-achievement, it's empty, a case of just spinning your wheels. Perhaps it could be said that I possess this elixir in one of its stages, and even if I don't possess it now I at least possess the energy system potential supported by my body that will allow the elixir to be produced.

How are emotions transformed? I would propose that the yin/yang symbol is the clearest depiction of the nature of mind in its natural state, there is very little in Buddhism which accords with this, but then again I don’t know that neidan takes this position either I think being logical and having a position is vital because we don't aspire to being aimless idiots being blown about in the wind, but being able to let go of an opinion when further and better information comes to light is absolutely required. Maybe a qualified non-attachment?

Didn't Buddha teach that emotions are illusion and need to be controlled, thoughts are illusion and need to be silenced, and inner balance is created through not attaching to anything or any outcome?

I basically don't agree with his solution to the problem of unhappiness overall, it was a solution that might have worked for him and might resonate with others, but it requires discarding too much that is valuable and basically human in this life, and I don't think it is the 'ultimate' solution. To believe in so much not existing as he did is just a philosophy after all, I don't think it is a fundamental truth. Personally I prefer the idea of actualising the human potential within the body, which as I see it is developing the subtle body according to natural laws, and using what is human within us to do it, valuing what seems meaningful to us instead of dismissing it. I don't think the two approaches are compatible.

It seems legitimate to ask whether a path that turns away from aspects of life as essential as sexuality and parenthood is truly spiritual. Does Buddhist enlightenment in any way suggest that life is a problem that can be solved, or that life is a cul-de-sac that can be, and should be, escaped? Examining and understanding (and regulating) yin and yang shouldn't require removing oneself from normal life, though Daoists might believe it is necessary because of Buddhist influence. Is balancing yin and yang equated with enlightenment?

I suspect pseudo-enlightenments and attainments are satisfying enough for some if not many people, though their essence may not be truly satisfied perhaps the ego just speaks louder sometimes. Who knows how many lifetimes it might take to stay with the dissatisfied voice.

Agreed, they are not the enemy. IME it is the interaction (copulation in alchemical terms)between yin and yang within myself at increasingly higher levels of consciousness that is ultimately satisfying.

The 'unite the opposites' approach can also be found in Yoga methods: "The aim of swara yoga, and the other different yogas, is to activate all the layers of sushumna nadi by uniting ida and pingala, the dualistic aspects of man's nature and energy, so that his consciousness may be expanded from its present limited state." As far as I can see if we work with what we do know within ourselves, our dualities, somewhat counter-intuitively we make space for what we don't know to actualise within ourselves.

Here is a short article trying to understand 'awakening' as understood and experienced by Westerners currently: SPIRITUAL ALCHEMY: WHEN TRAUMA AND TURMOIL LEAD TO SPIRITUAL AWAKENING In terms of this article a sense of dis-identification and despair may well be a prelude to 'awakening', but it is not awakening in itself.

Is non-duality actually a fundamental truth, or just another philosophy? Is there some overwhelming proof beyond intellectual assertion? Is it only a Vedantic philosophy, or is it also asserted in Buddhism, Daoism, New ageism? Is it practical to even contemplate when we are physical beings with physical limits?

It is a big topic, how the brain relates to yin and yang, I think there are two parallels, right lobe left lobe, which is like the mundane level and generally acknowledged as being two different ways of processing information, but there is also the True Yin and True Yang level which as far as I have understood it relates to some sort of hopelessly intertwined dual essence of self, which I see as two 'subtle' blocked channels within ourselves related to emotions (water) and mental activity (fire). The Neijing Tu clearly shows the water channel extending from the lower body to the head, perhaps the yellow line within the water channel is the 'fire' channel. I have to qualify though that I think fire is not the best word, I prefer the word 'light'. True Yin and True Yang have to mix, water and fire don't mix, but water and light can mix perfectly well. Generally the left brain lobe is considered to be the more verbal and linear processor, and the right brain lobe is considered to communicate pictorially and could be categorised as a global processor.

Why is Tao then said to have "produced the One" in the TTC? Tao produced [sheng] the One. The One produced the two. The two produced the three. And the three produced the ten thousand things. The ten thousand things carry the yin and embrace the yang, and through the blending of the material force (ch'i) they achieve harmony.

When I am dissatisfied enough for long enough with being only the river, I will become the riverocean.

Yes maybe, hopefully just a little side track. The issue might be that I am perceiving yin and yang as more fundamental within our own minds than the endless permutations of yin and yang in the world, which are ever-changing depending on what something is paired with - the 'school' of yin and yang. I'm seeing yin and yang as the actual subtle body representation of the two lobes of the brain, with qualities akin to the different processing styles of each lobe. This is my basic understanding at the moment, almost certain to be rejected out of hand by all and sundry, but nonetheless the foundation for how I am approaching this topic. My interest in the early Chinese God was based on the line "Shangdi... embodies yin and yang in unity..." I'm in effect just trying to follow the trail of yin and yang.

I'm more or less just exploring the topic myself, I read this just now in the wiki article on yin and yang:

And yet, from the Shang (1600–1046 BCE) the royal ancestors were called di (帝), "deities", and the utmost progenitor was Shangdi (上帝 "Highest Deity"). Shangdi is identified with the dragon, symbol of the unlimited power (qi),[14] of the "protean" primordial power which embodies yin and yang in unity...the name Shangdi should be translated as "Highest Deity", but also have the implied meaning of "Primordial Deity" or "First Deity" in Classical Chinese. The deity preceded the title and the emperors of China were named after him in their role as Tianzi, the sons of Heaven. In the classical texts the highest conception of the heavens is frequently identified with Shang Di, who is described somewhat anthropomorphically. Shangdi appears most commonly in earlier works: this pattern may reflect increasing rationalization of Shangdi over time, the shift from a known and arbitrary tribal god to a more abstract and philosophical concept,[14][15] or his conflation and absorption by other deities.