Bindi

At the moment I am referring to 'heaven' as in my forehead area, and the observer as opposite at the back of my head. My dreams contain very exact layouts But I also wanted to clarify my previous post to say that though yin and yang have been reintegrated, the process that is kick-started by this has not completed itself. I am watching it closely though.

Actually I mean just feeling the feeling. Working directly with emotions I have come to identify them for myself as the basis of the yin half of duality, and the linear intellect as the yang half of duality. To resolve their respective stored patterns I was immersed in that level of duality, but for me it was a (long) temporary immersion which did lead to the discovery of the observer once the yin/yang duality level was cleared and integrated with each other. Right now I would identify myself as the observer, but there is still a duality between 'earth' and 'heaven'. 'I' am the 'earth' observer, now watching to see how this new earth/heaven duality will play itself out.

I followed a different method to your dual approach, which goes quite a long way towards explaining my fundamentally different understanding. Where you use non-identification, I used the opposite, absolute emotional identification to process previously unfelt material, and where you probe I simply followed what dreams presented to be probed, in the assumption that what they chose to focus on at any particular time was intrinsically most appropriate. I wonder if non-identification has become the preferred method across diverse philosophies, a method I was not exposed to in my formative years, leaving me free to develop my own approach which, incidentally, I have found has worked well for me. Regarding karma, yes I must be referring to the 'results of karma', but calling it karma.

Your perspective makes sense as long as karma was illusory in the first place.

Some activity might ripple through consciousness eternally, but I don't grasp how that activity need be karmic if all karmic accretions were previously extinguished, as well as the unconscious basis for accruing further karma. But then again I have a fairly simple understanding of karma.

If all karma was actually dissolved, I would expect even the illusory effects to disappear. If karmic appearances persist in a non-dual experience, then they could be dismissed intellectually as illusory, but in reality karma would have not been fully resolved.

This one - 'the emotionally charged records one carries like baggage'. If everything is illusion, wouldn't it follow logically that karma is an illusion?

Why tyres aren't square...

Is karma illusory to the non-dualist?

Awareness of the whole issue of karma would increase over time if it was being addressed, at the point where it can be resolved awareness would necessarily be heightened enough to realise what was occurring. I don’t believe resolving karma could be either accidental or immediate, if you’re not aware of it and the slow progress towards its resolution, chances are it’s not resolved.

This is one definition of non-dualism - In spirituality, nondualism, also called non-duality, means "not two" or "one undivided without a second".[1][2] Nondualism primarily refers to a mature state of consciousness, in which the dichotomy of I-other is 'transcended', and awareness is described as 'centerless' and 'without dichotomies'.[web 1] Although this state of consciousness may seem to appear spontaneous,[note 1] it usually is the "result" of prolonged ascetic or meditative/contemplative practice, which includes ethical injunctions. I think it might be a popular phrase, not necessarily well understood, and claimed too often where another word or phrase might be more appropriate, like 'monism' as Apech mention earlier - Monism - a theory or doctrine that denies the existence of a distinction or duality in a particular sphere, such as that between matter and mind, or God and the world. Whether the experienced state is continuous or not is also important regarding non-dualism, but for me whether karma continues or not seems to be a better indicator of spiritual achievement in general. If karma is not affected, what then is the benefit of claiming non-dual experience?

'Starting work' in the head is not good advice as far as I am concerned. There are other places to start, with good reason IMO.

Intellectual assertion does seem to be the case with most non-dual teachers - you are just required to understand non-duality and that seems to be taken as realisation. Similar to the moment Ramana understood that he was immortal spirit, yet he still took decades doing something. Non-dualists nowadays don't tend to take decades beyond their initial intellectual understanding. I'm really just talking about the current advaita non-dualists, perhaps it depends what sort of non-dualist you identify with, there might be a few categories that I am ignoring.

I was trying to say that the spontaneous 'awakenings' which are so often equated with non-dualism can only be taught intellectually, because their spontaneity doesn't equip the experiencer to suggest a method, whereas neidan requires practical work over time with how yin and yang are expressed in embodied reality, which leads to the realisation of the immortal spirit. Maybe I wasn't clear enough. Yes Ramana might have been prepared for this insight/realisation, but equally it took him another X amount of years in meditation to settle this realisation, and in the end he referred to non-dualism as the most appropriate philosophy available to him to explain his realisation. I imagine if he was in China his explanation of his experience might have been in Daoist or neidan terms, in a Christian country he might have used Christian terms, I only refer to his words because he was immersed in non-dualism to explain things, and developed a good understanding of non-dualism through study over time.

Just re-reading some Ramana words because of this thread, and I came across this: Interestingly, "I am the deathless Spirit" sounds a lot like recognising the immortal spirit. Perhaps the immortal spirit is non-dual afterall, if this is Ramana's introduction to non-duality. Neidan is after nothing more than birthing and nourishing the immortal spirit, though it requires dualistic Yin and Yang to be resolved first. It is a method, unlike the spontaneous happening that cannot be taught except intellectually.

This is a fundamental aspect of non-duality - The experience of any state or heavenly world that comes to us will eventually go away again. That which comes and goes is not the Self. - Ramana I wonder if non-duality isn't sometimes being mistaken for a non-dual experience.

I'm all for nurturing the divine spirit child in us, but I was informed by dwai that this was still duality because the spirit or soul has an identity separate from the One still. As far as I have understood an immortal being exists in duality.

Wu Ming Jen, where is this quote from?

I think the soul would have the potential to be (relatively) perfect, at least as perfect as it needs to be to be to exit this plane, but I doubt it is already perfect. To my mind Grace would be required to do the lion's share and ultimately lift it from its karmic rut, as long as I have done my small but vital part first.

Perhaps I am talking about perfecting the soul, and perhaps this is just a step in the realisation of Self, but then it is also true that I see this step as the necessary initial step towards your proposed realisation of Self, which I don't see as possible from where we stand now. To me the perfected soul is the immortal spirit that both Neidan and Christianity posit as the ultimate aim, and any Self that may exist beyond this point is putting the cart before the horse for me. As to grace, I do still believe that we are to find the place where grace can enter, maybe it enters numerous times for different reasons, there is the grace that can end suffering in a moment, but I perceive other gifts that can be bestowed on us through grace as well, 'gifts of the spirit' that came down to the apostles for example, and it is these that require effort from myself first. BTW I don't know what you perceive as spiritual realisation though I would be interested to find out, I suspect it might be different to my aims and understanding.

If my awareness is not with my soul, then I am not already there. Perhaps to me my soul is the carrier of my karma, so it is not already perfect, it has to be cleared of its karma to begin to thrive. This to me is not a matter of grace, but of knowing how to clear karma. Learning to read is a process, hoping and praying won't make it happen, but being instructed on how to read we learn, it seems just as simple with removing karma, except there are no teachers.

Possibly there is Self beyond the heaven and hell realms, but accessing the heaven realm might be the best we could manage from here. If there is any unspent karma attached to us we can't even access the heaven realm, how could we be expected to go even beyond this to a non-dual self? To claim non-dual achievement is just an inflated spiritual ego if the person retains any vasanas or samskaras.

Is an evil act only evil from the perspective of the one made to suffer - for example was the Holocaust evil only from the perspective of those who suffered, but not intrinsically evil or bad or negative?

The soul is separate from awareness, it is the thing that may be born anew, the immortal spirit. The mind is a function of the brain, when the brain dies the mind dies, what remains aware is only the soul.

Does non-duality distinguish between good and evil, or is an evil act undifferentiated from God?