Bindi

I think the issue is that aligning your will with the divine is the way to let all obstructions go, it's not directly trying to let things go. It's acknowledging that something has to be done, but allowing divine guidance to show you how to do it.

Wouldn't you need to find the door first?

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. Also "But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well [food and clothes]."

Yes, "I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me" = "Not my will but Thy will be done." edit: Your perspective sees the divine only underneath obstruction, which has to be removed to see it. The alternative perspective (which I believe the bible supports) is that we can align with the divine even while we have emotional and mental obstructions, and in fact it is only this alignment that will lead us to 'the kingdom of heaven.' Without it as far as Jesus's recorded words go there actually is no entry into the divine. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Haven't you just ignored multiple quotes (attributed to Jesus himself, not a commentator) that clearly state Jesus had to make a conscious decision to submit his will to the Father even to death, and Jesus's requirement that we too "Do the will of the Father"? Does this mean you simply ignore the direct teachings of Jesus that don't fit your view?

To prove your point you have resorted to John's perspective and words to oppose multiple repetitions attributed to Jesus to do the Father's will.

I realise you are trying to explain something from your experience and perspective, but I don't think you can assume and state that Jesus had the same perspective and experience as you. From my reading I think that he believed that he and other people could and should align their will with the Father.

Indeed the gate is small and the way is narrow, and there are few who find it, but there will always be some who do, and those few seem to be specified as those that do the will of the Father, I suspect regardless of whether you think it is possible or not. Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but [only] he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Mat 7:21 The temptation Jesus refers to is more likely related to the trial of coming danger and persecution. I think the idea of aligning your will with the Father's is a thoroughly Christian concept, even though you don't agree with it for various reasons. In Christian terms the Father's will is apparent before dropping the ego, it doesn't just appear afterwards. Submission to the will of the Father is a conscious action that devout Christians would aspire to on a daily basis, sometimes to great effect.

Do you think the longer quote somehow changes the meaning of "not my will but thine be done"? I can't see it myself, maybe you could explain how it changes it for you. And then again this is not the only reference, how about “For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother” Matthew 12:50.

I agree with 3bob, I perceive a strong current of realignment which I think is vital, for instance “Father, if You are willing, take this cup from Me. Yet not My will, but Yours be done.” Luke 22:42

This is an online version (first ten verses I think) of Awakening to Reality with excellent notes from Pregadio https://universalflowuniversity.com/Books/Spiritual Philosophy/Taoism/(Taoism) Pregadio, Fabrizio - Awakening to Reality.pdf

I'm not well read in neidan literature, but I see there is an acknowledgement of the role that emotions play in this reference from "Awakening to Reality" in the first few lines of Poem 3 - If you study immortality, you should study celestial immortality: only the Golden Elixir is the highest principle. When the two things meet, emotions and nature join one another; where the five agents are whole, Dragon and Tiger coil. And Fabrizio Pregadio’s commentary on the second line - When the two things meet, emotions and nature join one another. The "two things" are, fundamentally, True Yin and True Yang. Inner nature (xing) is essentially pure and unaffected by phenomena or events of any kind. Emotions (qing, a word also translated as feelings, sentiments, or passions) are often impure and tend to disjoin from one's nature, to the point that they may become uncontrolled. According to many Neidan texts, the separation of inner nature and emotions is a feature of the conditioned state in which we live. Only when True Yin and True Yang merge can one's inner nature and emotions be not independent of one another, but in agreement with one another. The Chinese view of "emotions" is more complex than it might at first seem. Emotions are not seen as merely psychological phenomena, but rather as pertaining to the sphere of existence, of one's being in the world as an individual entity. For this very reason, emotions are often at odds with one's inner nature, which is inherently transcendent. When emotions and inner nature join one another, emotions turn into qualities - personality, temperament, attitudes - that allow a person to express his or her inner nature in life, according to his or her individuality. edit: I am astounded that Pregadio has encountered this reference to emotional and inner nature separation in "many Neidan texts," very interesting.

To your knowledge does Western alchemy start with work on the gut, and progress to the heart and then the head? Also did Jung refer to either the gut or the heart?

It could be time to move on from Watts, but if not just be happy with his conclusions without complaint.

This Alan Watts? http://www.philosophyforlife.org/the-lazy-mysticism-of-alan-watts/

I see your perspective as the natural outcome of popular but ungrounded spiritual philosophies. To me they bear the burden of blame. As far as I can see you've fallen for the popular neo-advaitan trap. Nothing to do, everything is perfect right now. As far as I'm concerned it's a terrible Western scam that has been embraced by popular opinion, and can lead to nowhere good. 'Most times confused and sometimes like a cloud in the wind.' The cloud in the wind good feeling is the ungrounded reward that keeps people hanging on to the fantasy of sudden non-dual awakening.

Personally I have never practised any Daoist system or form, I have only ever 'sat in hell and roasted' while as much as possible trying to understand the process. I've come at it more from a psychoanalytical perspective, and untangling emotions has always been the driver for me. Yet this has led me to an understanding and appreciation of Daoist alchemy above all other systems as it so perfectly articulates much of what I have experienced and come to understand. Jung examined his own subconscious and also came to alchemy, it seems like a natural outcome for this sort of active self-exploration.

The six yins and six yangs are separated and need to be united. There is a dark (hidden) secret, remote and slight, that separate they are yet joined together. -- Wei Boyang (Canton Qi - Triplex Unity) Master Shangyang explains the meaning of the above two lines: In just these two lines is the most perfect and complete summary of what is meant here. Separate they are yet joined together meaning that the two objects yin and yang are 10,000 miles apart in their activity - but if they gain the old Yellow Woman to act as match-maker, although far from each other, they come very close together. And then the two materials respond in due measure, bearing as a seed ‘the primacy of yin and yang. -- Master Shangyang, The Secret of Everlasting life, Commentary on the CanTong Qi (Triplex Unity) If the six yins and the six yangs gain the Yellow Wife, they will unite and bear a seed. The true seed is the point of spiritual light which is prior to the separation of Heaven and Earth. -- Li Dao Chun, The Book of Balance and Harmony

I was just reading this, I think it is describing the same thing in Chinese alchemical terms: On one hand, fire stands for the yang energy of illumination; the illumination of the mind of Tao, which is conscious awareness. On the other hand, fire stands for extinction; the extinction of everything that opposes conscious awareness. This opposition refers to the (false) yin energy of the human mind or lower self; the pollution of acquired conditioning, compulsive habits, the six senses troubling one, and the seven emotions running wild. The method of action in spiritual alchemy is to burn away all the pollution of acquired conditioning. -- Liu Yiming (Taoist I Ching, Hexagram #7 ,The Army) When mundane yin is stripped away, and the celestial yang is pure, the firing is sufficient. -- Li Daochun, 13th c. Taoist master (The book of Balance and Harmony) The firing process, which burns away false yin and reaches a state of pure yang, requires a balance of yin and yang. Here, balanced yin and yang refers to firmness and flexibility being balanced, while pure yang refers to conscious awareness of the Original Spirit and false yin, to the mechanical awareness of the human mind. Stabilize the will with firmness; do the work with flexibility. Making the will firm and strong is setting up the crucible; Gradually progressing in the work is setting up the furnace. Firmness and flexibility are both used, without imbalance; Having prepared, work the fire and the convergence according to the time. -- Liu Yiming, The Inner Teachings of Taoism

IMO an 'oppositional' dynamic exists between yin and yang, by revealing the hidden core of true yin and true yang a new creative dynamic can be generated that can fulfil an individual's human potential.

An important feature of... [Chinese internal alchemy] is that it is only concerned with True Yin, which is the Yin enclosed within Yang, and with True Yang, which is the Yang enclosed within Yin. These are the concealed core, the hidden internal truth; they are the materials or the “ingredients” of alchemy. The goal here is to bring the internal and the hidden toward the external and the visible. Two trigrams are at the origin of all others, their father and mother. They are Qian, which is related to Heaven and is made of three Yang solid lines, symbolizing pure Yang; and Kun, which is related to the Earth and is made of three broken lines, symbolizing pure Yin. Qian and Kun joined and gave birth to the other trigrams, two of which are especially important for the alchemist: Kan and Li. The inner line of Kan (a Yang line enclosed between two Yin lines) and the inner line of Li (a Yin line enclosed within two Yang lines) are True Yang and True Yin, respectively. Their multiple meanings and functions cannot be fully described here. Let it suffice to say that they represent the trace and the union of the father and the mother; and that they express above all a fundamental principle of interdependence: there is no Yin without Yang, and vice versa, or there would be sterility. https://thekongdanfoundation.com/lao-tzu/2199-2/

One of the foundations of the Daoist way of liberation is in lessening and draining away that which hides or obscures what one has received from heaven. “In this regard, the Zhuangzi admonishes that for human beings the issue does not lie in having a transitory and limited individuality, defined (among other conditioning factors) by forms. For the Zhuangzi, the issue lies in the attempt made to compensate for those perceived limitations by “adding” something to one’s individuality, and in performing actions with that purpose. ...One may become “settled” or “stabilised,” by not being dependent on the transiency of forms, and instead by letting “what is provided with a form be an image of the formless”. Accomplishing this does not require a process of “increase” or of perfectioning but rather of “decrease” or of return, as the Zhuangzhi says quoting Laozi: Practicing the Dao is called decreasing day by day; decrease and then again decrease, until there is no doing; when there is no doing there is nothing that is not done. p. 106-107 https://www.persee.fr/doc/asie_0766-1177_2004_num_14_1_1202

My favourite example is not a Daoist but an Orthodox Russian Saint Seraphim of Sarov. He developed clairvoyance and the ability to perform miraculous cures, and seemed to be very closely connected to some 'divine' source. Though 'powers' are not the aim or the reason for desiring 'liberation', I associate their development with the measurable amount of liberation attained. Powers along the lines of Saint Seraphims, genuine clairvoyance, healing, not odd qi tricks or otherwise useless demonstrations of abilities. This might not be very PC of me of course. Also the return to good health and extended lifespan seem to be a particularly Daoist measure of attainment. Is full Daoist liberation, the development of an immortal spiritual body, considered possible by anyone? Or is this just Neidan's version of liberation? And a question I've mulled over for some years, is Jesus an example of full Daoist liberation in returning to life in a spiritual body?

Hi Yueya, it's true I didn't read the whole Neiye I only got to page 4 or so, my comment was premature as I see now after having read the whole thing. My apologies. Perhaps my thinking is more disordered than usual, which might be a very good sign as my disordered mind is what I'm trying to shed light on at the moment

You lose conscious awareness in dreams at night, but there seems to still be a witness to the dreams that are occurring, and the dreams themselves are made of some sort of consciousness stuff. I have always assumed that dreams have unimpeded access to my true nature, that they reflect my true face so to speak, and losing my daytime consciousness is an advantage because it doesn't then get to interfere with my true nature's message.