Bindi

There are two Jesus's in the bible, one is a simple man who asks people to seek for the kingdom of God, and likens it to a treasure hidden in a field that we must find, the other is almost megalomaniacal, saying 'I am the way, the truth and the light, no man cometh to the father but by me.' One says seek within, the other says only have faith in him, which has created the religious division that we know today. The bible is a many layered text, and it seems to me we are reading the layer that most appeals to us.

If Jesus himself speaks of making every effort to enter through the door, is it reasonable to accept that this directive be overturned by either *Paul, or a later author influenced by Paul's thought? Isn't this the birth of a religion that would be unrecognised by Jesus himself? *Ephesians authorship has traditionally been credited to Paul the Apostle but, starting in 1792, this has been challenged as Deutero-Pauline, that is, written in Paul's name by a later author strongly influenced by Paul's thought. (wikipedia)

"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able." Luke 13:24

Jeff, it does seem to me that you are suggesting that 'no effort' is being promoted in the NT, what about 'But seek ye first the Kingdom of God', which must involve intention and surely effort? And presumably one must keep seeking until one finds the Kingdom, is this an effortless task?

I agree. I suspect this stuff goes on at the causal level, and very few are operating at this level and aware of those causes and effects, or able to consciously affect things on that level, mostly this stuff goes on 'behind the veil'. I think many more would have been affected by this level now and then, unconsciously though. 


The goldsmith is up and doing while melting gold. As long as the gold hasn’t melted, he works the bellows with one hand, moves the fan with the other, and blows through a pipe with his mouth. But the moment the gold melts and is poured into the mould, he is relieved of all anxiety. - Ramakrishna

Yes some of these do suggest that you are in tune with your Higher Self to some extent. Personally I would discount anything to do with kundalini as miraculous though, it is a very powerful energy afterall, and some of the visions that you mention can be just personal mental states. But some of it does seem to be beyond mere luck

I mean have you personally witnessed miraculous feats such as "Drinking tubes of Lie for example, shitting in their own hand and transforming it into sandal paste aroma and all, to prove the point of nothing making a difference, eating hot coals, being imprisoned only to be found on the roof of the jailhouse, walking on water" etc. I am interested but could you just write the specifics here?

And did you witness any of his miraculous feats first hand?

This is the full passage, I don't believe it is a bad translation. You might somehow have to come to terms with the idea that the Buddha did not endorse dependence, or let go of Buddhism as a support for your own personal opinion. Chapter 12, The Self 157. If one holds oneself dear, one should diligently watch oneself. Let the wise man keep vigil during any of the three watches of the night. 158. One should first establish oneself in what is proper; then only should one instruct others. Thus the wise man will not be reproached. 159. One should do what one teaches others to do; if one would train others, one should be well controlled oneself. Difficult, indeed, is self-control. 160. One truly is the protector of oneself; who else could the protector be? With oneself fully controlled, one gains a mastery that is hard to gain. 161. The evil a witless man does by himself, born of himself and produced by himself, grinds him as a diamond grinds a hard gem. 162. Just as a single creeper strangles the tree on which it grows, even so, a man who is exceedingly depraved harms himself as only an enemy might wish. 163. Easy to do are things that are bad and harmful to oneself. But exceedingly difficult to do are things that are good and beneficial. 164. Whoever, on account of perverted views, scorns the Teaching of the Perfected Ones, the Noble and Righteous Ones -- that fool, like the bamboo, produces fruits only for self destruction. [14] 165. By oneself is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depended on oneself; no one can purify another. 166. Let one not neglect one's own welfare for the sake of another, however great. Clearly understanding one's own welfare, let one be intent upon the good.

Sounds about right.

What could be different about the 1800's that spawned all these miraculous feats, that no longer exists today in the age of video at hand?

sorry, I meant video footage, have any of these feats been recorded on video?

How can this - “Nisargadatta is said to be enlightened but he boasts, brags and conducts arrogantly.” http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=4140.0 - be ego free behaviour? 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Matthew 7:16-20King James Version (KJV)

Have any of these feats ever been recorded?

276. You yourself must make an effort. The Tathagatas (Buddhas) are only preachers. The thoughtful who enter the way are freed from the bondage of Mara. The Dhammapada.

I'm not comparing him to Ramana here though, I am saying Sri Nisargadatta was deluded by ego, deepening is not 'done'.

With even a shred of ego left delusion remains. Where delusion remains there is no Self-realisation. Why are there so many people who want to delude themselves about their level of attainment? Merely a different disguise for ego to wear.

165. By oneself is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depend on oneself; no one can purify another. The Dhammapada:

Sri Nisargadatta over-estimated his attainment, he was deluded by his ego, yet he is considered an enlightened man by some. It pays to be highly discerning, discernment should be considered the greatest siddhi of them all.

Nearing death, Buddha gave this advice... "Therefore, O Ananda, be ye lamps unto yourselves. Rely on yourselves, and do not rely on external help. Hold fast to the truth as a lamp. Seek salvation alone in the truth. Look not for assistance to any one besides yourselves. "And how, Ananda, can a brother be a lamp unto himself, rely on himself only and not on any external help, holding fast to the truth as his lamp and seeking salvation in the truth alone, looking not for assistance to any one besides himself? Herein, O Ananda, let a brother, as he dwells in the body, so regard the body that he, being strenuous, thoughtful, and mindful, may, whilst in the world, overcome the grief which arises from the body's cravings. While subject to sensations let him continue so to regard the sensations that he, being strenuous, thoughtful, and mindful, may, whilst in the world, overcome the grief which arises from the sensations. And so, also, when he thinks or reasons, or feels, let him so regard his thoughts that being strenuous, thoughtful and mindful he may, whilst in the world, overcome the grief which arises from the craving due to ideas, or to reasoning, or to feeling. "Those who, either now or after I am dead, shall be lamps unto themselves, relying upon themselves only and not relying upon any external help, but holding fast to the truth as their lamp, and seeking their salvation in the truth alone, and shall not look for assistance to any one besides themselves, it is they, Ananda, among my bhikkhus, who shall reach the very topmost height! But they must be anxious to learn."

There is a state beyond ego which very few seem to achieve. For example: In the case of Sri Ramana, the ego ended in the experience in Madurai, and from that moment onwards, Sri Ramana says there was no change in his experience. That is consistent with Sri Ramana’s description of Sahaja Samadhi. The case if Sri Nisargadatta is quite different. Sri Nisargadatta continued until the end of his life to describe the changes that were occurring. For example he said that previously he thought he was free of the ‘I am the body’ identification but that now he could see that some had remained, etc. In Sahaja Samadhi there is no longer an entity that can undergo changes in the level of ‘I am the body’ identification and there is no longer an entity that can go on learning about itself and there are no parts in the Self so that one part can be revealed to another part. Thus the state that Sri Ramana Maharshi was in is called Sahaja Samadhi. The state that Sri Nisargadatta was in and out of and in and out of is called kevala samadhi. Also Sri Nisargadatta had the view that after Self-Realization there is an endless journey of discovering oneself. Both these are consistent with those who go in and out of kevala Samadhi. However those descriptions are completely inconsistent with Sahaja Samadhi. http://albigen.com/uarelove/sahaja.htm

Who helped Buddha? Who helped Ramana? It seems to me the ones who went the furthest were the least helped.

How many 'awakened' people ever even gain siddhis? And if gained, are they permanent anyway? Most seem to just have a change in perspective, and apparently they equate this change in perspective with being beyond ego, though ego clothes this realisation just as it might clothe a siddhi. 'The relatively newly Awakened will 99% of the time consider their "position" far far far far far higher than it is', but does this necessarily change with time?